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HelicopterThunder TigerOther › Difficulty with Tic-Toc - R50 V2
12-08-2004 02:36 AM  13 years agoPost 1
KenChoo

rrNovice

Perth, Australia

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Hi there,

Just learning to do tic-tocs and wanted to see if people out there had experienced the same things I am right now.

Some background info on my equipment - Raptor 50V2, TT50 engine, V-blades (600) and V-tail rotor blades (95mm), stock flybar paddles, Quick UK head block and washout, idle up pitch range -9 to +9 (0 at center stick), 7.25 degrees of cyclic pitch ail and elev. Not sure what the headspeed is, guessing around 1800?

Okay, my issue is that the heli drops in transition from each stop point. I understand it's a timing issue with the sticks and waiting for the heli to stop falling at the stops. I've learned to wait for the heli to stop falling at the stops (e.g. I pull back elevator to about 45-50 degrees then put in negative collective til the heli stops, wait a half-second). Now it's only falling in between the stops. Like after the first pull back and negative collective, I push down elevator till the heli is at the other 45-50 degree mark and give it positive collective. It's vastly different timing on the simulator (Tru-Flite) though. I can hold negative collective from the first stop all the way till I'm at the other stop before changing to positive collective (i.e., elevator first, collective, release elevator, opposite elevator, collective, etc.)

Now I'm thinking to get it to stop falling I need to make my collective changes quicker, DURING the transitions instead of waiting to hit the stops. Is this a correct assumption? Or is it something else I need to be doing? What about paddles? Are the stock ones too heavy for proper tic-tocs? (I kinda doubt that - I mean lighter ones would probably make it easier to do, but the stock ones should be ok as well).

Thanks,
Ken

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12-08-2004 04:07 AM  13 years agoPost 2
Dusty

rrApprentice

Edmonton, Alberta - Canada

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I believe the lighter paddles will not help in this at all. The only thing it might do is make it more crisp in the cyclic.

When I'm doing tic toc's... I'm moving the collective before I start the cyclic control. It is ever so slight, but the collective is there first.

All this with a 30 V2 and mine doesn't fall out of the sky at all since I switched to a higher nitro fuel.

Hope this helps.
Shawn

Canada Shawn

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12-08-2004 04:11 AM  13 years agoPost 3
rcheliflyer

rrKey Veteran

calif., usa

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The Tic Toc needs a lot of power and headspeed to do well, that being said, I prefer doing them in Idleup2 1900, but I also do them in Idleup1
1700 and have to stretch them a bit, even more collective lead and wider angle.
What I've done to my Rap that seems to help in this area is install
carbon flybar paddles / wts, fast collective servo 9252, this made it
an all around better 3d flyer too.
The stock paddles are ok, but it seems like they really need a lot of HS
1900 - 2000 to get that quick reaction you are looking for.
You may want to tach your headspeed as I found the cyclic as well
as the engine powerband is lacking at the lower speeds.
Also it helps on the entry to really throw the heli into the manuvere with
a good shot of collective, it's a loosing battle if you start rapidly decending before you complete the 1st Tic Toc.

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12-08-2004 04:26 AM  13 years agoPost 4
Wa11banger

rrElite Veteran

Huntsville, Al

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You are correct your issue is timing.. You need to do like Dusty recommended and move collective before cyclic and also stay at each end just a tick longer.. At the ends is where you will build your lift and maintain altitude.. A good way to start learning the timing is to instead of doing wild tic tocs like you see in video start by flopping all the way over, On back on skids etc.. back and forth and gradually as you get your collective management under control tighten them up.. Another side note until your real good at the timing an R50 isn't going to do the crisp tic tocs you see the 90's doing

Just my .02
Rick

Proud member of the Quick UK, Duralite Flight Systems, V-Blade, & KBDD team

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12-08-2004 04:52 AM  13 years agoPost 5
KenChoo

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Perth, Australia

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Thanks for all the good advice...keep 'em coming!

Cheers,
Ken

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12-08-2004 02:21 PM  13 years agoPost 6
Phranque

rrApprentice

Wherever you go, there you are.

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I learned the way Wa11banger described. Start by doing "rainbows", going fom horizontal upright to horizontal inverted, then start shortening up the "strokes" of the rainbow, and you will be doing tic-tocs. I'm at the point where I can do about 6 to 8 movements without losing altitutde, and I know your frustration..........

Keep at it. It is hard to keep the cyclic & collective in sync, but once you get the hang of it, it's a blast.

Flying a heli is like seeing the Matrix, it is a mind bending experience.

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12-08-2004 05:26 PM  13 years agoPost 7
airdodger

rrElite Veteran

Johnston USA

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The quickest pitch servo you can find,a friend of mine has the lighting fast airtronics servo in one of his Raptors ,that heli does them so good it is awesome ,the other Raptor without so so. Chris

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12-08-2004 07:05 PM  13 years agoPost 8
A. Bundy

rrElite Veteran

Aurora,IL. 30W/SW of Chicago

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I could not do them untill I bumped the head speed way up.1950 works good,but I really don't like slinging the blades that fast.

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12-08-2004 08:56 PM  13 years agoPost 9
Phranque

rrApprentice

Wherever you go, there you are.

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Don't run the 95mm tails if you're gonna be doing tic-tocs
I was running 92mm NHP's and I connected. I lost a tail blade in flight as a result....consequences were not pretty....
I could not do them untill I bumped the head speed way up.1950 works good,but I really don't like slinging the blades that fast.
If I remember correctly, I think Szabo Jr. runs his headspeed at 2000 to 2025 rpm.
I run an MPIIQ on my TT50, 9252's all around, and an idle2 headspeed of 1950 rpm......reacts very nice for my current abilities.

Flying a heli is like seeing the Matrix, it is a mind bending experience.

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12-09-2004 05:22 AM  13 years agoPost 10
LannieBaker

rrApprentice

moultrie GA

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loose the 95's theyll hit....cut em to 92 or 93.

the power and timing is critical in this one trick i CAN do without crashin. I run 12 degress top and bottom and 8 cyclic. I have the hyper 50 w/a mpII and white MA paddles and my machine will do tic-tocs as crisp and as fast as any 90 out there.

they best way to learn em is like the fellows say , do the rainbow manuever but get some white MA paddles and youll be shocked at how quick your rappy is. i run 1980 HS all the time, i would bump yours up from 1800

proudly sponsored by the Local Pawn Shop Proprietor

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12-09-2004 05:49 AM  13 years agoPost 11
Dusty

rrApprentice

Edmonton, Alberta - Canada

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Head Speed
Head Speed is where it's at baby!

Normal I run a fairly low head speed... but only use that for take off's and flying low pattern stuff.

Idle 1 I run about 1850 and Idle 2 I run over 2000.

Shawn

Canada Shawn

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12-09-2004 10:18 AM  13 years agoPost 12
KenChoo

rrNovice

Perth, Australia

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Hey guys,

More good advice, thanks. Wish I really knew what headspeed I'm running (I don't use a governer or have a tach). I'd been thinking about getting V-paddles, but I should learn how to do proper tic-tocs first...I don't mind the slower transitions between stops even though they make the maneuver harder...I figure I'll learn better timing this way.

On the collective servo (and cyclic too actually)...I'm using a JR8301. Basically 18sec/60deg, with about 90+ oz/in torque (6.5kg). Should be ok. Also running 400mah Duralites with a 5.1 regulator.

My 95's, yeah...basically put them on for lack of options at the LHS. no 92's or 90's, only the stock 85's and these. They're great for hovering but I am worried about them hitting. I thought it would only hit if I were using the TT 600 mains (cause they're really 606's), but I guess some guys running real 600's are experiencing it too?

Ken

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12-09-2004 02:39 PM  13 years agoPost 13
Jack_R30

rrApprentice

MY

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Hello Ken, u must be with Boon's groups.... For 50 size, 92mm tail blade is the way to go, I tried 95mm is way to much.

For paddle, try MA 3D paddle, +/- 6 is good enuf. Tic-toc.. it takes time to get the right timing, keep practice..

Jack


Jack

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12-10-2004 12:53 AM  13 years agoPost 14
KenChoo

rrNovice

Perth, Australia

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Hi Jack,

Yep, I'm with Boon's group. Don't believe I've met you (in person), but a pleasure to make your acquaintance on-line! Yeah, I'll go in and get the 92mm Rotor-Tech's I saw in his shop the last trip I made. Still tempted by the V-paddles...

Whereabouts do you fly?

Ken

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12-10-2004 01:22 AM  13 years agoPost 15
Jack_R30

rrApprentice

MY

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V-Paddles is nice to have, it is not neccesary. If you r using stock paddle, give MA 3D paddle a try, you'll love it especially now you r learning tic-toc, you need fast cyclic respone.

We are every where, sometime Rawang, Sg. Buloh, S'gor Polo Club... I think you probably heard of Yap (Rawang Group).


Jack

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12-10-2004 04:46 AM  13 years agoPost 16
LannieBaker

rrApprentice

moultrie GA

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just cut 3mm of your tail blades, that'll work but forget the v paddles, they have no better cycli responce than the stock ones. MA is the way to go AND you gotta get a gov. you will never regret it, thats the only thing i ever bought for a heli that made me say " i wish i woulda bought one months ago". itll make flying alot better and easier...i like the TJ pro, its easy to set up and makes the world of difference

proudly sponsored by the Local Pawn Shop Proprietor

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