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HelicopterMain Discussion › Heli Crash TOWING A BOAT!! DUMB A$$
12-16-2004 09:36 AM  13 years agoPost 61
Crusty

rrApprentice

N51 degrees 29.823 minutes W3 degrees 16.133 minut

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Avropilot, so are you disagreing that it is dynamic rollover?
why do people who have flown full size think they automaticaly know more than those who havent, this is simply a generalization , I have a couple of hours in a robinson...guess what?....I learned very little while I was up there, it was all about putting into practice things I already knew about.
Its just pure eliteism, to claim greater knowledge simply because you flew a big one, and then not even be able to back up your arguement

I am dsylexia of borg..resistance is fruity...your arse will be laminated

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12-16-2004 01:47 PM  13 years agoPost 62
Aaron29

rrProfessor

USA

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..

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12-16-2004 02:39 PM  13 years agoPost 63
gigi

rrVeteran

Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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Since the argument is dying down...
I'm going to toss some fuel back in it

I've never flown a full-scale helicopter. (Notice I didn't say a "real" one.) But I've been fortunate enough to go for rides in a Bell Jet-Ranger (NYC tour) and a Bell 47. I remember most the impression of being suspended by a big rope when taking off. These machines WILL be greatly influenced by forces applied incorrectly to them, which was undoubtedly the case here.

There is no doubt the pilot is unworthy of his certificate. His cow-boys ways are apparent before the boat was ever tied to the heli. There is no doubt that this was a clear case of dynamic roll-over. As was pointed out by several posters, the rope became the pivot point (an unflinching, extremely efficient one, at that!) where it met the skid, and the second that rope became taut (let alone with the HUGE forces the idiot pilot put on it, God knows who he was trying to impress) it was all over.

There are NO similarities between this dynamic rollover and rolling a free-flying helicopter 90 degrees! None, period. In the first case, the cyclic can only serve to accelerate or slow down the the inevitable crash, not prevent it. In the othercase, the helicopter is merely more banked than for a regular turn. If done correctly, and within the flight envelope of the machine, it's business as usual. Having said that, I don't think civilian machines are rated for exceeding 45 bank angles.

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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12-16-2004 04:23 PM  13 years agoPost 64
CrashExpert

rrApprentice

Scotland

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I know who the Pilot was its a guy called Graeme from Scotland, still flys model helis much the same way as this!!!!!!



Crash
601 Crew Member
Your about to be Cloned!!!!

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12-16-2004 04:35 PM  13 years agoPost 65
AirWolfRC

rrProfessor

42½ N, 83½ W

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Maybe he aught to stick to model helis.
They're a lot cheaper to crash.

Wolfgang

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12-16-2004 05:54 PM  13 years agoPost 66
BC Don

rrElite Veteran

Calgary, AB Canada

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OK, my uneducated $.02. The rope isn't the Pivot point. If it were then right cyclic would have have allowed the Heli to rotate to the right and correct.

The problem we have is that the pivot point is still the CG which is in line with the main shaft. When right cyclic is given the left skid has to come up as the right one goes down. With the left skid held at it's point all that is happening is more stress is being put on the rope (which unfortunately in the case didn't break).

So, how could he have recovered? Didn't think to cut the rope and didn't have time. Right cyclic (normal reaction) caused him to crash. He needed to get his skids horizontal somehow. Giving left cyclic would have just pulled him in sooner. How about inverted - oh ya right, this was real life. But, had he been able to flip to inverted, I'm thinking that would have saved it. If anyone cares to try with their setup, please let us know.

Got Money? Send it to me, I'm a Heli Addict.

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12-16-2004 06:24 PM  13 years agoPost 67
Ringding

rrApprentice

Austria

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Yes, because he had cut the rope then . But there was too little space for the flip. This gives me an idea. He should have done a piro and hope that the tail rotor cut the rope

He should have reduced the positive pitch, this would have saved him, however the timing would be difficult to say the least.

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12-16-2004 06:47 PM  13 years agoPost 68
BC Don

rrElite Veteran

Calgary, AB Canada

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That's the answer, a 180 piro (I'm thinking to the left). That would have placed the rope on the skid closest to the boat. Of couse to do that the piro would have likely caused the Heli to move backwards a bit - not sure how it would have liked that. Once he did the 180 he'd then be able to apply left Cyclic to right the Heli and as long as he didn't tuck the skid under when he did he should be OK.

Got Money? Send it to me, I'm a Heli Addict.

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12-16-2004 09:49 PM  13 years agoPost 69
Avropilot

rrVeteran

Murfreesboro, Tennessee

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Crusty
Why are you taking offense? I didnt back up my argument? I gave a pretty good explanation and a image that clearly explains Dynamic Rollover exactly how I teach it to my students. Why dont you come down for a lesson?

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12-16-2004 10:44 PM  13 years agoPost 70
biggen

rrApprentice

UK EARTH

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Give a few guys a model helicopter and all the sudden their aerospace experts.
I will say one thing guys and no doubt you will back me up on this I know a lot of full size pilots of fixed and rotary wing discipline and when you ask them a technical question about there machines more often than not they simply reply “I DON’T KNOW I ONLY FLY IT”
And in my experience modellers tend to know more about how things work than the full size Misters because we have to!
To keep our little ships flying.

This bloke's got to be a NUMPTY towing a speedboat with a heli???? What’s all that about ????
I don’t care how it crashed it did because the pilot is a nobhead

Regards Biggen

HELICOPTERS DONT FLY THEY JUST BEAT THE AIR INTO SUBMISSION

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12-16-2004 11:35 PM  13 years agoPost 71
Avropilot

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Murfreesboro, Tennessee

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I don’t care how it crashed it did because the pilot is a nobhead
So it was Dynamic Stupidity?

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12-17-2004 12:08 AM  13 years agoPost 72
Lock-Tite

rrVeteran

Quebec, Canada

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Here is the real towing-heli that should have been used !

(Picture is from Kennys Gallery)

Frank
Dont forget to bring a clean pair of shorts when flying 3D ;)

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12-17-2004 12:17 AM  13 years agoPost 73
Ringding

rrApprentice

Austria

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Awesome machine!

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12-17-2004 12:28 AM  13 years agoPost 74
warrior29

rrApprentice

Jacksonville, FL

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Ok by Army definition
DR you have to meet three conditions:
1. A Pivot point ( this is usually at the point of the wheels or skids)
2. A rolling motion ( this can be pitch or roll axis)
3. The aircraft has to exceed the critical angle ( This is the point at which no matter how much cyclic or collective input is made the helo will continue to roll because of mechanical limitations of the input)

If you can answer yes to these three questions then yes you have Dynamic Rollover. No where in there does it state that it can only happen on the ground.
The rope was the pivot point
The forward momentum of the helo created a pitching moment
Finally the aircraft did exceed the point of no return. As the aircraft pitched over the pilots input would have been to put full cyclic input in the opposite direction. Because forward momentum and the rolling motion the aircraft continued to pitch around the pivot point the rope.
Thus exceeding the critical angle

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12-17-2004 12:39 AM  13 years agoPost 75
AirWolfRCrrProfessor - 42½ N, 83½ W - My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Or if the CH-46 towing the equipment sled isn't good then try this CH-47

Wolfgang

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12-17-2004 01:11 AM  13 years agoPost 76
gigi

rrVeteran

Port-au-Prince, Haiti

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Nice picture, Airwolf!
Hey, guys, how about us modelers who know this is a textbook example of dynamic rollover leave the other folks who aren't willing to (or simply cannot) understand the theory alone?

Some people just don't mind being in the wrong Let them be.

Quick comment: I think the pilot turned around the boat exactly like one would do if one were flying (quite confidently) an R/C model. It's guys like him that cause accidents. (I know, 'cause I'm at least 20% like that myself I must watch myself like a hawk! One of my crashes with my Raptor 50v2 was because I was trying to pick-up a box with a a hook under the Raptor. After 6 tries, I decided I needed less control, and more speed. That was 5 seconds before heli and box did a to-the-death wrestling bout which cost me $150, but thankfully hurt no one)

Gigi

My heli spending has gone way down since I got a Honda 919 :-)

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12-17-2004 01:19 AM  13 years agoPost 77
Helimex

rrApprentice

Oklahoma

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I don't think civilian machines are rated for exceeding 45 degree angles.
Most if not all helicopters can fly in excess of 45 degrees. It's happening daily in Iraq. But according to some of the experts here, if you do that, you've experienced dynamic rollover. Hey Warrior, I don't know what they're teaching you in the Army these days but my trusty FM 1-203 disagrees with you. It has plenty to say about the ground.

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12-17-2004 09:41 AM  13 years agoPost 78
Crusty

rrApprentice

N51 degrees 29.823 minutes W3 degrees 16.133 minut

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Avropilot, apologies, I must regulate my demeanor a bit more.
Helimax, who said that a steep bank equals dynamic rollover?, I cant find that in this thread

I am dsylexia of borg..resistance is fruity...your arse will be laminated

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12-17-2004 02:20 PM  13 years agoPost 79
warrior29

rrApprentice

Jacksonville, FL

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It talks about the ground because most pilots do not tether their aircraft to a boat. I understand your arguement. You have a valid point but by definition if you meet those three conditions I mentioned before you are in dynamic rollover. What the pilot did by tethering his aircraft was displace the pilot point but technically if you think about it he was still attached to the ground. Think outside the box.
Yes a helicopter can roll or pitch in excess of 45 or 90 degrees but not necessarily straight and level. To maintain level flight power has to be increased. At bank angles in excess of 60 degress it requires 100% more power to maintain straight and level flight. So at a low altitude and a high bank angle the aircraft will descend if airspeed is not traded off (potential vs. Kinetic energy) or the aircraft may impact the ground.

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12-17-2004 02:24 PM  13 years agoPost 80
Helimex

rrApprentice

Oklahoma

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There seem to be a some experts and "engineers" that confuse a steep bank and DR as one and the same. Apparantly, whether you recover or not, it is still DR.

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HelicopterMain Discussion › Heli Crash TOWING A BOAT!! DUMB A$$
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