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Zoom › I now know why some don't like to use governor​mode!..
10-25-2004 03:56 AM  13 years agoPost 1
iskoos

rrKey Veteran

Orlando, FL

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Okay My set up is;

Himax 2025-4200
8T pinion,
CC P-25
Like90 Woodies
stock tail drive shaft

Frst I tried fixed throttle mode then switched to high gov. mode. And I realized that tail started to wag after switching to governor mode. I spent two days to fix it; tried almost all combinations on the gyro(GY401) and on the throttle curve to get rid of wagging but didn't work. Today at the field, my friend advised me to switch back to fixed throttle mode and to use thorttle curve instead. I did what he said and tail is not wagging anymore...

I can't believe this the problem was governor mode.
Now I have to set a good throttle curve and I'll be good to go.

Did the same happen to you?

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10-25-2004 04:19 AM  13 years agoPost 2
motorbikemike

rrApprentice

aurora CO

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It is funny that you say that as I was just going to post the same thing
I have spent day's trying to find the cure. I have to thank 8axleED for letting me see the way. I have been in my garage for the last couple of hours dead set on fixing the tail wag or drift depending on the head speed. What I came up with was

9 volt cut off
soft cut off
disabled break
fixed throttle
softest start
high advance timing

I am running a 2025-3200 9 tooth pinion
CC25
HubDave belt drive
micro heli gear box
like 90 blades
gy-240
and carbon push rod

The heli loves this set up and so do I. I had to play with the pitch and throttle curves to get it perfect but it was well worth it. I now have my gyro set at about 80 and no wag or drift. Atleast after all this work my heli is perfectly smooth no vibs at all I think some CC25's work OK in GOV. mode but mine did not but fixed mode Kick's but for me
I hope this will help some of you out that have the same problem
Mike

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10-25-2004 04:43 AM  13 years agoPost 3
iskoos

rrKey Veteran

Orlando, FL

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Yeah Mike I was going to send you an e-mail explaining what I did and how I fixed the problem but posted here instead so everybody gets to see it.

My CC P-25 set up is same as yours with the exception of cut-off voltage. I set it to 8.4v and It is better to me this way.
Well, actually this is another side effect of governor mode. My ESC is set to soft cut-off but when using governor, it just didn't seem a soft cut-off. Motor would start kicking as soon as voltage was 9.0v. (Sure because governor tries to keep the head speed constant) So with 9.0v cut-off my flights were ending all of a sudden without any sign. And that was very uncomfortable. Some says here that heli cannot fly well at 9.0v but mine does fly well. Even with cut-off voltage set to 8.4v, it has enough power to hover.
So now with fixed throttle, I believe I will see REAL soft cut-off

Governor was working good except the tail. It was keeping the head speed constant. But boy, my tail is more important to me.

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10-25-2004 05:00 AM  13 years agoPost 4
motorbikemike

rrApprentice

aurora CO

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I did not realize it was you posting this. I sent you a PM telling you to look at this post I will have to try the 8.4 just to see.
Mike

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10-25-2004 05:47 PM  13 years agoPost 5
RaptorDude

rrApprentice

Madeira Island,​Portugal

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Yup... this makes sense...

My guess is that this is caused by the rapid variation of power that the ESC applies, trying to maintain a constant RPM...
This in turn, will cause quick variations in the main rotor torque... which the gyro/servo combo can't handle properly...
That's only my guess, anyway...

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10-25-2004 06:19 PM  13 years agoPost 6
CRAZYKEV

rrVeteran

Cincinnati,Oh -​U.S.A.

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Have you guys upgraded to 1.021 castle software? I am not disagreeing with your choice to not use gov. mode. I haven't had that tail wag problem and sourced it to the gov. mode ( it was always something else, vibration or slop in tail linkage ). I use it set to 100% which is a high head speed, but it works! I have no tail wag at all.

PARK 400 8tooth
Like90 woodies
cc-25
2100 tp batt
all hs-56 servos
csm 200
complete microheli alum tail / slider, gear case and and bb bell crank
shaft drive with four ceramic bearing support (two in middle of tube)
microheli blue gears
berg-5 dsp II
JR 10X
6v sbec
HR-poly lipo alarm
my own carbon fins, battery ext, radio tray, boom support, and tail push rod
All up weight: 576g

Kevin

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10-25-2004 06:25 PM  13 years agoPost 7
msg73

rrApprentice

NJ

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Kevin,

What are you flight times with your setup (TP 2100)?

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10-25-2004 06:55 PM  13 years agoPost 8
CRAZYKEV

rrVeteran

Cincinnati,Oh -​U.S.A.

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I have that lipo alarm, so I don't time my flights anymore. I would say that it is more than 15 min. but not by much. I will post some times after I do some flights on the clock. If I take a break midway through I can get two 9 min. flights which I have timed before I got the lipo alarm.

That alarm makes it so nice to fly electrics! You aren't worried about the cutoff getting you when you weren't ready.

Kevin

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10-25-2004 09:12 PM  13 years agoPost 9
Satoer

rrApprentice

Zaandam, the​Netherlands

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I tried to use fixed throttle. (CC phoenix 25) But then the slow start doesn't work anymore?

Don’t you guys have that problem?

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10-25-2004 09:53 PM  13 years agoPost 10
iskoos

rrKey Veteran

Orlando, FL

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Satoer

I agree on that. The same happened to me.
Have you tried softest?

It just doesn't make sense why soft start is not working with fixed throttle.

And yes I am running 1.021 version software

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10-25-2004 10:03 PM  13 years agoPost 11
Satoer

rrApprentice

Zaandam, the​Netherlands

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Yes, I tried the softest. and it doesn't work in software version 1.021 and 1.07B (havent tried 1.08B yet)
If you haven’t got the tail belt... this is definitely the way to kill you’re gears

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10-25-2004 10:49 PM  13 years agoPost 12
Jim Cimino

rrKey Veteran

NE Pennsylvania

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I am using High Governor Mode at 90% in normal mode and 100 % at idle up. The idle up seems to give the best performance for any 3D. I am running the following:

2025-4200
8T Pinion
CC 25
JR 410 Gyro
3S2P 1660 mAH Batteries
Berg receiver

I have no problem with tail wag. I have flown it with and without governor mode. I use soft start and have about three hours of flight time without any gear problems. By the way, I purchased this heli used, so the gears had flights on them before I bought it. The problem seems to be the gyros. Futaba 204 and 401 seem to have this problem. I used the JR, because it was there.
Jim

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10-25-2004 11:08 PM  13 years agoPost 13
8AxleEd

rrApprentice

San Jose, CA

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According to those that use govenor mode, it works above 85%.

Try your setup with the govenor mode set to 75% and see if your tail has problems.

If you have the ESC at 100%, the govenor mode isn't really doing much control system work, it just gives as much current to the motor as it can. There is not much need to adjust speed or torque in that case, hence, no head speed oscilations. No head speed oscilations means that there are no torque variations for the gyro to compensate for.

The govenor mode and the gyro are two automatic control systems that can effect each other.

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10-26-2004 01:07 AM  13 years agoPost 14
motorbikemike

rrApprentice

aurora CO

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I had my GOV. set at 65 then 75 all the way up to 100 and I had a tail wag the whole time. I just think some of the P25's work good and some dont. I cant come up with a reason for it but I know I tryed every option. I even got a PLINK so I could adjust one thing at a time and the only thing that worked for me was fixed mode at about 75 at mid stick up to 100 at high and low stick. If you have a P25 and the GOV works then that is great,I wish I did.
Mike

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10-26-2004 02:40 AM  13 years agoPost 15
Zack429

rrNovice

Brandon MS, USA

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If you find a cure for the soft start problem be sure to post it, because I need soft start and I dont want Gov.

.....Zack

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10-26-2004 03:07 AM  13 years agoPost 16
8AxleEd

rrApprentice

San Jose, CA

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I thought that the soft start was only supposed to work in govenor mode. I thought it just told the ESC how fast to spool up to the govenor steady state frequency.

I thought the purpose of the fixed throttle mode was to allow you to set the RPM according to the throttle curve. If the throttle starts out at a very low RPM, 7.6% for me, then how fast the ESC reacts shouldn't be an issue. If your throttle curve starts out at 70%, then that would be an issue.

I have a normal throttle curve that starts at 0%, and works its way up to my desired headspeed. Once I get at 0 degrees pitch, the rotor head is going between 2000 and 2200.

I switch to idle up 1 for a v-shaped curve that holds a high head speed through the whole pitch curve.

The gears shouldn't have any stress on them unless you hit the throttle quickly when going from stopped rotor to hover.

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10-26-2004 04:12 AM  13 years agoPost 17
Spread out!

rrApprentice

cali

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I am using High Governor Mode at 90% in normal mode and 100 % at idle up. The idle up seems to give the best performance for any 3D. I am running the following:
Every Shogun I have ever seen do smooth aerobatics have all been using Gov mode. Mine works fine.

Heres a short clip with Gov Mode. With a OLD version PHX 25.

http://www.stembridgeusa.com/videos/zoom1.wmv

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10-26-2004 04:38 AM  13 years agoPost 18
iskoos

rrKey Veteran

Orlando, FL

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I did the same thing as motorbikemike did.
When using high gov. mode, my normal was set to 55% and idle1 to 60%. The tail was wagging. And I reset the throttle to 85% and over (all the way to 100%) as some of us recommended. And NOTHING changed.
Why would it? at 65% the motor was running at max head speed. Changing the throttle curve between 65% and 100% has no effect. How would it help the tail wagging go away?

Plus I don't remember who said that but I do remember reading it that 100% throttle curve on the radio doesn't necessarily mean that the motor running on max throttle. In my case, 65% would max out the engine rpm and causing the read light to come on. So there was no more head rpm beyond that point.
Again I did try all the ranges up to 100% but it didn't work.

I am jealous of those who don't have tail wagging and running governor mode. Because today I test flew the heli with fixed throttle mode but I realized that the climb out rate was reduced significantly. With high gov. mode the bird was like insane; now it is not that strong. But maybe throttle curve is not right. I'll tach the blades to get the optimum throttle curve and let you guys know.

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10-26-2004 05:02 AM  13 years agoPost 19
Spread out!

rrApprentice

cali

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Okay My set up is
;Himax 2025-4200
I seriously think this is the majority of the problem.
Mine never worked right. I ran about two packs threw the POS and junked it. Its funny everybody blames the ESC , while running the cheapest Motor available.
Governor was working good except the tail. It was keeping the head speed constant. But boy, my tail is more important to me.
You said that the HS was higher in Gov Mode> Did you ever think that maybe its the gyro picking up noise from The motor or ESC at the HS you were reaching in gov mode. Where is your Gyro located?

I have had tail issuses aswell but it was never the ESC. Once I had the esc to close to the Gyro and it did exactly what Motomike describes. I moved the esc and the problem went away.

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10-26-2004 05:28 AM  13 years agoPost 20
iskoos

rrKey Veteran

Orlando, FL

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

Its funny everybody blames the ESC , while running the cheapest Motor available.
Man, I see that this isn't the best motor but just didn't want to pay more than double (which is Hacker b20-15l for $119) while the same size was available for $52.99 Plus I saw people running this motor and the motor was doing just fine. Even some himaxx owners say they don't have problem.
You said that the HS was higher in Gov Mode> Did you ever think that maybe its the gyro picking up noise from The motor or ESC at the HS you were reaching in gov mode. Where is your Gyro located?

Ans the ESC is mounted under the frame between the skid braces.

I thought of that but if the ESC making noise, it does it througout the throttle range not only in gov. mode. It did happen to me before while running brushed motor and controller. The ESC was making noise and it would effect the gyro as soon as motor starts turning.

Now, I turn up the throttle up to 100% on fixed throttle mode and tail doesn't wag. I use high gov. mode and it wags at even 35% of thorttle.
So don't think it is noise.

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