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HelicopterKyosho Caliber/Quest Neo-Caliber series › substitute swashplate for Concept?
10-20-2004 06:04 PM  13 years agoPost 1
rob10000

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Western​Massachusettes

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I just noticed my swashplate is wearing out. It's the stock Concept 46 VR model. Tower wants $80.00 for the all metal Zeal, and $50 for a replacement. The diameter is 8mm.
Has anyone tried another model's swashplate in the Concept? Maybe a Raptor one?

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10-20-2004 06:33 PM  13 years agoPost 2
Doug

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Port Saint Luice​Florida....

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A swash is a swash If the "hole" fits the shaft then it should be adaptable.

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous

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10-20-2004 07:57 PM  13 years agoPost 3
pick2

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Louisiana

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which portion of the swash is going bad.Does it have the metal are plastic balls.The metal ones or replaceable.

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10-20-2004 08:25 PM  13 years agoPost 4
rob10000

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Western​Massachusettes

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I know a swash is a swash, however, since the Concept's swash is fixed, if a replacement item is too wide, it will hit the top of the frames at extreme cyclic inputs.
My current swashplate has about 60mm distance between opposing ball centers.
The wear mine has isn't on the balls, it has vertical play in it.

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10-20-2004 10:29 PM  13 years agoPost 5
MJA

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UK

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Rob10000,
Whatever you do DON'T buy a swash that is for an 8mm diameter mainshaft (eg an older Shuttle uses 8mm) because although the mainshaft is 8mm on a Concept, the diameter of the centre ball is
12mm as it slides over another part.I don't know of any 30 size heli's that use a 12mm mainshaft.The Raptor 60 uses a 12mm mainshaft but the outer and inner is a bit big (another 10-15mm in diameter on inner and outer)
It might work with reduced throws (and maybe
a modified elevator cradle links) as when the balls are set further out on the the swash the swash now doesn't need to tilt as much to give the same inputs to the mixer arms and flybar control from the inner ring of the swash

Another alternative is to find a swash where the centre ball can stand to be drilled from 10 to 12mm,ideally with centre ball in in aluminium so it's easier to drill

The vertical play where the inner and outer ring of the swash moves can be temporary fixed and will porbably last a long time without needing to be redone
by pressing the inner out (its just a bit of plastic thats peened over the bearing to hold it in place
Then carefully
cyanoing around the centre part of the inner bearing race then pressing the two parts back together.It's a good idea to cyano the outer part of the bearing into that outer plastic part of the swash while you have it in pieces,just in case the play is partly the bearing cage moving there also

Martin

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10-21-2004 02:58 AM  13 years agoPost 6
rob10000

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Western​Massachusettes

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How silly of me. Of course the swashplate rides over the pitch rod guide, and not directly on the main mast. The diameter of the pitch rod guide is 12mm, so that is the size required..Ughh. I doubt a substitute can be found that will work easily.
I'll keep a close eye on my swash, and remember how to tighten up mine. Thanks for the input!

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10-21-2004 01:19 PM  13 years agoPost 7
Doug

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Port Saint Luice​Florida....

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It's actually called the "outer mast" I shoulld have thought of that since I fly 60 SRII's and the design is the same on the "little brother"

First member of Member of Bearings Anonymous

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10-21-2004 02:40 PM  13 years agoPost 8
rob10000

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Western​Massachusettes

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for some reason, its called different things on the 30 vs the 60, even though they look exactly the same, just different sizes.

Does anyone have an opinion of the Zeal upgrade swash? If it's truely a high quality piece I guess I could justify it if no others are a direct fit.
I read HERE that initial ones weren't much better than stock, but they were supposed to be fixed in future runs...

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10-21-2004 10:31 PM  13 years agoPost 9
MJA

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UK

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Rob10000

I doubt i'd like to spend that
much on metal swash for the Concept nowadays
,even though they fly great and are very agile indeed
Still have a VR kicking about and lots of spares from a part kit,
but can't be bothered with it.It's much easier in the long run to let go
&
fly something more current like Raptors or Hirobo's where a few 3rd party companies are making all sorts of
upgrades at great prices and they don't need many to begin with.

If it is just a metal swash needed to finish your heli off well
,that's one thing,but the Concept is weaker in more areas now compared to the latest heli's.But the prices for parts remain quite high
so a crash with an old machine can still
be quite costly and if there are some parts known to be hard to come by or extortionately priced
, even hold back your flying for fear of planting it

For my 46 powered Concept i was flying a few years back,
these are some of the things i did to get it how i wanted it.

Extend the boom and tube drive in order to use longer blades
Change the cooling fan,change the clutch bell to Zeal part
Use a K&S tail bellcrank,because Kyosho's suck big time,not
ballraced and tend to be too tight all the time
Modify the unrestricted flap damping to stiffen the cyclic and collective
feel
change the paddles and plastic part H-3003
Bought a Zeal part to replace part H3323,virtually eliminates any chance of getting runout when tightening the 4 grub
screws
I never bought a metal swash for it,but i had some other swash's from part kits so kept replacing it or tweaking it if became too sloppy
.
Some other downers it has/had
there's the Z bend control rods that wear the servo arm holes bigger
Some go for the full metal ended carbon rod kits ,but i just replaced the servo arms,a lot cheaper
8mm mainshaft that bends in just about all minor incidents
Expensive feathering shaft sets
Fuel tank not really big enough for a 46or 50 to give good run times
The pitch rod wires are a
bit on the small side and could let the mixer unit twist a bit
when moved through the collective range
which can introduce unwanted timing changes requiring more fore aft stick work during continuos rolling
60 size Concepts had a groove in the mainshaft to stop this happening
and also thicker wires
Even with an uprated fan the cooling was marginal so the engine had to be kept richer needled

Not trying to put you off,just make you aware its easy to plough money into older heli's with upgrades to make it more functional (not for the Bling)
, those upgrades will be worth near to f**k all when you want to sell it,or won't add much to the asking price,
more so as it's not as popular machine anymore
So don't buy new if you can help it
,look for 2nd hand or modify something else off another heli


Martin

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10-22-2004 12:22 AM  13 years agoPost 10
rob10000

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Western​Massachusettes

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Hey, I definately appreciated the report.
My first heli was a Concept DX about 13 years ago, I learned alot on it, and gradually upgraded it to SX standards. Unfortunately, I chose to fly it over a lake about 7 years ago without flotation and it sank, never to be seen again. I also bought my Concept 60 when it first came out, and lived thru it's teehing problems. I upgraded the whole things to SR standards, and I still love its smooth authority. I've only crashed it once and it's still in awesome shape. All I ever have to do is add fuel to it. It's so maintenance free it's scary.
My 46VR I basically got for free recently, so I didn't mind updating it a bit. I already used a Caliber boom to gain enough length to run 550 blades. I used what I had on hand for a drive shaft-a cut down concept 60 pipe drive.
I also did add the metal hiller lever to replace H3003, and I got the metal pitch rod guide. I also got a metal fan and start cone for cheap on E-bay. It came with the upgraded tail pitch lever, and I used a Caliber boom mount for the tail servo. I wouldn't consider even trying out the control rods with Z-bends, so I used balls and links when I built it.
I am using a OS 50 Hyper on it, and the head just fits inside the shround, and cooling seems adequate. With this motor the helicopter is a rocketship.
I am using V-paddles, and the response it pretty awesome. How did you cut back on the flap dampning?
Anyway, I like having something different at the field, and my antique gets respect.
I am picking up a Raptor this week. You can't beat the parts availibilty,performance and price. I'll use it for trying new maneuvers, and for when the field is crowded, but I'll NEVER get rid of my Concepts!!

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10-22-2004 01:05 AM  13 years agoPost 11
HAT

rrApprentice

OC California

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Same here, I still have my SX and 46 VR. I upgraded my VR head to a Zeal Rotor head and starter cone. No intention of selling both, maybe using the SX on a scale heli.

So far I have added 4 more heli's in my fleet, 2 Calibers ( one standard and an FT) 3DNT and an Evo. Most of the time I fly my Evo 50 because parts are readily available in the field (a friend imports parts from overseas) when something goes wrong.

Sponsored by: American Express

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10-22-2004 02:46 AM  13 years agoPost 12
MJA

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UK

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<<
I am using V-paddles, and the response it pretty awesome. How did you cut back on the flap dampning?>>

Rob,
Instead of letting the spindles flap undamped with just the rotor rpm controlling the damping feel you add extra damper rubbers into the head trapped between the two case halves,with the sleeves shortened by the width of the damper and also run the headspeed high like before
for good measure
Red dampers from the older Concept make it almost solid until they wear in a bit
,the black ones are softer and the ones i settled for in conjunction with Raptor paddles on a Raptor flybar (slightly longer than Kyosho's and fits 3mm inside diameter shoulder bearings in the see saw where the brass bushes used to be).This gave a relatively quick responding fuselage following the disk with less time lag to the cyclic stick input,to do quick rolls flips etc,whilst having a progressive cyclic feel so it doesn't tend to tighten up on it's own during bigger large diameter loops or get too pitchy in fast forward or backward flight.
The Red dampers ,or new black dampers should enable the use of
thicker profile AND/OR heavier paddles than the K&S razors which i've never liked (on any heli) as they're best for quick close in stuff but suffer for more precise and fast forward flight stuff.The other thing extra damping helped with was the collective time lag that annoyed me compared to a solid axle setup with conventional damper setup,however they were great in the wind unmodified
getting less great the more solid it was made

The downside is the surface contact area on the rubbers is very small so they wear quite rapidly,especially the black ones.Also because the sleeves are shorter ,the blade grips can move more when the dampers eventually wear out and have the potential to run even closer to the boom,which isn't a problem if the headspeed is kept high enough throughout anything you may do and are not learning auto's with it like that,whcih wouldn't be a problem anyway unless the heli is landed with backstick still in at touchdown.

The red ones are the most durable but it could do with two cylinders of that CX damper Delrin type material,then they'd never wear out

<<
Anyway, I like having something different at the field, and my antique gets respect.
>>

I'm not surprised,my 46VR was a rocket ship with an OS46SFH in it,with the OS50 Hyper it must be mental.


Martin

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10-31-2004 03:27 AM  13 years agoPost 13
rob10000

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Western​Massachusettes

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Well, I went and bought a Raptor to compliment my fleet.
Now I'm considering pulling the Hyper out of the Concept, and putting it into the Raptor. I think the Hyper is a bit too much for my Concept.
With that being said, and looking for a bit less power, should I be looking at the OS 46 or 50 in my 46VR now?
I'm running 550 blades.
Has the 46 been discontinued? Many places don't list it anymore..

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10-31-2004 07:18 PM  13 years agoPost 14
MJA

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UK

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Rob,
The OS50 has more power and less economical on fuel
especially if run rich than the 46FXH
However if you install an rpm governor (if you don't have one already)
and set the headspeed to say 1900-2000rpm and use 58 to 60cm blades (to help keepit loaded more)
the governor will take care of any engine overspeeding and only give the power you need by controlling the carb opening accordingly, which should even out the extra fuel consumption in line with an OS46's
No real advantage to using an OS46
unless you can find one cheap as it had a DIY
carb mod too,to cure a mid range problem
with certain nitro/needle settings

Another way to deliberately
drop the power output would be to
reduce the ATV's on the throttle or thr curves,drop the nitro or use a muffler instead of tuned exhaust


Martin

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10-31-2004 10:52 PM  13 years agoPost 15
rob10000

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Western​Massachusettes

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Well, today's events solidified my desire to remove the Hyper.
I was messing around, and really throwing the helicopter around in the sky. It's funny how gross overpowering makes you kinda fearless....
I think it was a combination of full aft elevator, and full negative pitch (-12 degrees!) with full throttle........
Anyway, I heard a distint "CLICK" I immediately landed, and sure enough, I had a boom strike in midair! Not much, mind you. The blades don't have a mark, but there is a nice, shallow depression in the boom.
I do not have a governor on this machine, yet. But I'm going to be looking at a 46 or regular 50 for the Concept. They potential of the Hyper is going to waste.
ALSO you mentioned, Footaba, the dampner mod is next on the list on this machine before I get crazy with it again!!!

Where can I get the CX Delrin material you mentioned earlier, and what would be the drawback to not have any dampning??

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10-31-2004 11:29 PM  13 years agoPost 16
MJA

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UK

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<>>

I'm not 100% sure the CX yoke dampers (as used for the Freya) are made out of Delrin,it just looks similiar but a little more spongy
Augusto would probably be best to talk to about what that stuff is exactly and where to get some of it,i doubt he'd want to release the source.
You'd have to machine it yourself to fit though&i think it's still too hard a material,it would make the rotorhead axles virtually completely solid.

Next hardest damping would be to use the Red Concept 30 dampers
H3217 with shortened sleeves.


Downsides to very hard or 0 damping:

heli is very sensitive to elevator in fast forward/backward flight but may be ok/manageable
with very heavy,thick profile paddles.Usually even worse when auto'ing in strong winds too for tucking under and/or ballooning nose up

It loses the benefit it has over a solid axle head ie being very good in gusty winds and sitting well in stationary piro's
It could screw up the timing too(ie where you get a bit of roll with elevator or elevator with roll input)
,depending what paddles combo you use,but this can normally
be corrected with the mechanical adjustment
It may also
roll much worse (needing more fore/aft correction)in one direction than the other (compared to the unrestricted flapping head)
More of the flight loads get transferred directly to the head block and grip bearings+more rotorhead related airframe vibration

The heli will wobble at a higher rpm at the end of auto's

higher risk of breaking a blade grip or making a grip bearing go notchy after a crash

The risk of bending a mainshaft or cracking the head block in flight may be greater too i would think,esp if the rotor disk got seriously destabilised

most of the above varies with main blades too,esp how flexible the blades were/are spanwise ,stiffer being better for soft damping and worse for hard damping


Martin

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HelicopterKyosho Caliber/Quest Neo-Caliber series › substitute swashplate for Concept?
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