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HelicopterKyosho Caliber/Quest Neo-Caliber series › Mavrikk carbon 550s vs. Mavrikk Glass 550s
06-02-2004 02:20 PM  13 years agoPost 1
Paulie

rrApprentice

Waterford, MI

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Just a question...

I've read many posts on this forum concerning the preference of the Mavrikk glass blades over the Carbons.

Can any of you explain the differences (as far as flying goes) between the too? Your likes & dislikes?

Also any other blade preferences out there for the Caliber 30 (with an OS .30) ?

Thanks!

Paulie

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06-02-2004 02:53 PM  13 years agoPost 2
the collective

rrKey Veteran

Bayside, NY, U.S.A

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I tried a set of the Mavrikk glass 550's on my Caliber. Maybe I just got a bad set, but I found them to reallty bog the head with collective and cyclic movements. Much worse than the kit woodies which showed very little bogging.

FunKey 550's worked out better for me, your mileage may vary.

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06-03-2004 01:19 AM  13 years agoPost 3
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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I've flown the woodies, the Mavrikk 550 glass, and the Mavrikk 550 carbons on my Calibers.

My order of preference is the glass blades, followed by the woodies, followed by the carbons.

The Caliber with those 550 glass blades performs extremely well. The heli flies like it's on rails and aerobatics are nice and crisp.

The woodies are actually fairly decent as far as woodies go. You can fly them, do some decent aerobatics, and the heli doesn't feel like it's working hard to do what you ask it to.

When flying the carbons, the heli, at least to me, had the feeling that it was sluggish and even a bit "heavy" at times. It's one of those gut feel things that is hard to explain, but the heli just felt like it was working really hard to run with the carbons.

With the glass blades, on the other hand, the heli has a good solid feel, and it seems to never be wanting for power. It performs and does what you ask, when you ask it to.

It's as if the Mavrikk 550 glass blades were designed just for the Cal 30.

Dave

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06-03-2004 03:17 AM  13 years agoPost 4
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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I'm using the glass blades on a Cal 30 and I agree with Dave. My next step is to try the TT Carbon 550's and see how they work.

Terry

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06-03-2004 03:20 AM  13 years agoPost 5
Clayman

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Richer, Manitoba, Canada

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I have the 550 Mavrikk Glass on my Caliber30 and really like them I am fairly new so only have a little time on the woodies but i noticed a differance when I put the glass on and now don't want to ever go back to wood unless a crash and don't have a spare set of glass on hand. Not cheap here for galss blades

If U Don't Fly U Don't Try

Trex 600 Pro OS50 Hyper

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06-03-2004 03:22 AM  13 years agoPost 6
kauaison

rrApprentice

Alameda, CA

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Well i tried both and found little difference, and for a beginer u will see none...

save your money and go Woods, at least until u get up to flips and autos...

they work great for most moves...and out of all the crashes ive been in, the most espensive part has 'always' been the blades...

honestly the only difference i have seen is in extremley hard 3d moves, and by then the blade grips are bending more then the blades, for u...advantage of glass and carbons are the time saved on balancing...

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06-03-2004 01:02 PM  13 years agoPost 7
Paulie

rrApprentice

Waterford, MI

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I have been flying the carbons and have not really had any troubles with how it flies. They're just kind of noisy.

There are several of you out there that have posted that you like the glass blades better and I thought it would be worth discussing.

I fly mostly in idle up mode, and do basic aerobatics (loops, rolls, stall turns, inverted (some)). I have noticed that my bird looses power during rolls, but that could be due to improper of throttle/ pitch management.

I have tried the NHP razors and I think I like them better than the Mavrikk Carbons. They seemed to keep the head speed more constant. But at $80.00 a set, I went back to the Mavrikks until I stop crashing on a regular basis. The Mavrikk carbons were only $4.00 more than the glass, so I got several sets.

I appreciate everyones input on this forum, you have saved me much pain and gave me lots of guidance.

Oh... for the record, I did the head flip in my Caliber and I like it.

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06-03-2004 01:07 PM  13 years agoPost 8
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Head flip on a Caliber? You went to trailing edge control? Or did your Caliber come set up from the factory with trailing edge control and you switched to leading edge?

Both of mine came with leading edge setup and there has never been a need to flip the grips here.

Dave

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06-03-2004 03:58 PM  13 years agoPost 9
d-n-jensen

rrVeteran

Bellevue WA

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I have only used Maveric Carbons and I also had a set of the NHP Razors. I prefer the Maveric blades. I think I will need to try a set of glass blades to see for my self if they are any better. I will say I did notice a difference when I flipped my head to trailing edge control. The heli is a little more crisp and the wobble is gone. After I got my head speed up to 1900+ the wobbles were gone except when doing auto's the wobble would sometimes show up when the head speed got below 1400+-. Now with the head flip I have not seen any wobbles at all.

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06-03-2004 08:49 PM  13 years agoPost 10
Paulie

rrApprentice

Waterford, MI

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Dkshema,

I was referring to the head flip mod that changes the Delta 3 angle.

See CK_'s post:

It explains the proceedure completely and has pictures.

After doing the mod, my Caliber feels tighter and more precise in the air.
My experience in hard landings (read crash) has also shown that the plastic mixer arms that always seem to break upon a crash, aren't breaking anymore.

If you haven't tried the head flip mod, no biggie... but my Caliber flies better after doing the mod.

Paulie

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06-04-2004 01:27 PM  13 years agoPost 11
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Yes -- that's the grip flip I thought you were talking about.

Keeping the head speed up in the 1800 rpm range cures all the wobbles, and the heli really requires no additional mods if flown with the leading edge control as shipped.

With the head in that RPM range, the Caliber is responsive and has no bad habits.

Dave

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06-04-2004 04:46 PM  13 years agoPost 12
d-n-jensen

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Bellevue WA

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Dave you are correct when saying keeping the head speed up in the 1800 + range cures the wobbles, BUT. What about auto's?? I did many an auto where the C30 started to wobble when the head speed got down below 1400. Now with the head flip (and the correct delta angle) this no longer occures. The ship does fly better in all aspects and the flip is easy to accomplish and the only problem with it is the swashplate moving in the opposite direction in pitch.

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06-04-2004 08:52 PM  13 years agoPost 13
Paulie

rrApprentice

Waterford, MI

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That's why I did it...

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06-04-2004 10:24 PM  13 years agoPost 14
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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I wonder what is going on here? Why would some Cal's wobble and others don't. Mine has been flawless even through one good rekitting. The collective is stock.

Terry

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06-04-2004 11:52 PM  13 years agoPost 15
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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If you try to fly the Caliber 30 with too low a head speed, the whole heli begins a low frequency wobble and looks as if you are going to just come apart in the air. It is something that when you see it happen to you, increases the pucker factor ten-fold.

The cure is keeping the RPM up, and in doing so, the Caliber becomes a very smooth flying heli.

The grip flip has been tried on many helis -- most notably those who are designed to have trailing edge control of the rotor pitch. People refer to positive and negative delta, as an electrical engineer, I prefer to refer to the same stuff as postive and negative feeback.

Most stable control loops use negative feedback to keep them from going out of control and destroying the system. Systems designed with positive feedback have advantages, but if improperly designed (or if something malfunctions, or goes out of spec), a positive feedback system will usually "run wild" and destroy itself -- wild oscillations, thermal runaway, etc.

The negative delta (leading edge control), if for whatever reason the blade tries to increase it's pitch, the leading edge link will tend to pull the blade back down - limiting the blade "overshoot". With the trailing edge control, if the blade tries to increase its pitch, the trailing edge link can't limit the increase travel, and depending upon the geometry of the head, will actually add to the pitch increase.

It was noted that the woof-and-poof syndrome was most prevalent in trailing edge controlled machines...and the few pioneers who flipped the grips to leading edge control soon reported that many cases of woof-and-poof were cured.

That being said, when the Caliber was first introduced, the ARF kits came set up with leading edge control (I presume the new ones still come that way, too). But it was soon discovered that at lower head rpms, the whole machine wobbles.

This is not just a Caliber specific symptom, as my new Hirobo EVO 50 wobbled terribly on its first hover as I was tuning the engine and trying to get the trim and engine settings all sorted out. Based on my Caliber experience, I tweaked the engine and pitch curves a bit, got the EVO head speed up, and voila -- it, too is one rock stable, sweet flying heli.

Back to the Caliber. If flipping the gips on those Woof-and-Poof machines cured their problem, I suspect that the first thought that popped into the minds of a few of the wobbly Caliber owners was "flip the grips." This flip actually goes against the prevailing wisdom by changing a stable negative delta configuration into an unstable positive delta configuration. If you actually read the posts on this topic associated with the Caliber 30, I think you'll see that the results of the grip flip are really inconclusive. Some report that it works, some report no difference. Those who report that it works, only report that the rpm at which the wobbles begin seems to drop to a lower value. Fortunately, no one seems to report woof-and-poof syndrome starting to occur as a result of the flip.

As for the wobbles happening during autos -- you're just getting the head speed down into the dreaded wobble range of rpm. I've read all over RR that the 30 size ships just don't auto like their 50 -90 sized brothers -- mainly because there isn't enough mass to keep the head speed up where it needs to be, in order to perform a safe auto. The key to killing the wobble on autos in the Cal 30 might just be learning to manage the dead-engine head speed more precisely. As with most 30-powered ships, collective management is a bit more of an art than it is on the larger ships with bigger rotors and more mass.

Dave

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06-05-2004 03:38 PM  13 years agoPost 16
Paulie

rrApprentice

Waterford, MI

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VERY well said Dave!

Paulie

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06-06-2004 03:50 AM  13 years agoPost 17
d-n-jensen

rrVeteran

Bellevue WA

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Dave did you ever read the long disertation by Wayne Mann about the delta angle and the c30 head flip. I think it was on RC Universe about 2 years ago. Wayne's technical writing abilities are very good. Any ways he convinced me that the flip was a positive thing.

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06-06-2004 04:21 PM  13 years agoPost 18
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

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Yes I read it two years ago, when the Caliber 30 was new to the market. I've also owned two Caliber 30's for the same length of time and have flown them extensively for those two years. The bottom line is that the head works great as is, and as long as you keep the rpm up, there is no wobble problem

The same can be said for the EVO 50 -- keep the head speed up, and the wobbles stay away.

My Freya will even wobble with a low head speed.

I respect Wayne's technical writing, and that same topic was covered at about the same time frame in the helicopter section of Model Aviation or RC Modeler. In that case, it was not Caliber 30 specific, but was aimed at explaining the two setups and how the leading edge control (negative delta) was actually the better way to go when setting up the head on a heli, as it made for a more stable and predictable control system.

If you were to go read the followup posts about people who did the grip flip on the Caliber 30 (and there weren't that many who apparently did), the results were inconclusive. Some claimed better performance, some claimed that there was not a lot of difference. The ones who did the flip also reported that the wobbles were still present, but the RPM at which they occur dropped to a lower value.

Go ahead and flip the grips if you want to. It's your heli, and your experience.

In my two years of flying the Caliber 30 with the Mavrikk glass blades (and the original woodies for a short while), I have not found a pressing reason to do so. Mine fly great as is.

Dave

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06-06-2004 06:18 PM  13 years agoPost 19
d-n-jensen

rrVeteran

Bellevue WA

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Over the past 2 years I have had my C30 I have not tried the glass blades only the carbons. I have seen many a Freya do the minor wobble when doing auto's. My caliber had some serious wobbles when doing auto's and this is the primary reason I flipped my grips. I do find it interesting that some do and others do not experience the wobbles. My personal opinion is the head yoke is to narrow. The two damper rubbers are only 1"+- apart and do not have the moment arm needed to correctly dampen the loads.

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HelicopterKyosho Caliber/Quest Neo-Caliber series › Mavrikk carbon 550s vs. Mavrikk Glass 550s
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