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HelicopterHIROBOOther › Helping stabilize unstable blades in the Freya
06-01-2004 11:07 PM  13 years agoPost 41
I3DM

rrProfessor

Israel

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Wow, now i cant wait to try it myself even more !!!
will report back on either the weekend or maybe on Thursday if i get time to fly.
thanks.

www.liorzahavi.com

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06-02-2004 08:22 AM  13 years agoPost 42
ozheli

rrApprentice

Sydney, Australia

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How do you know if your heli uses stabilizing delta or not? I have a shuttle ZXX and want to know if the blade grip flip will work on that. I know it can be done cause I've looked at the head, just wanted to know if it is already a stabilizing delta?

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06-02-2004 11:56 AM  13 years agoPost 43
Garry-Boy

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Moscow, Russia

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The trick is the leading edge of bladeholders.
If you got it in front than it's a positive(stabilizing).
If you got it in back - negative

Garry.

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06-02-2004 03:17 PM  13 years agoPost 44
MJA

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UK

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The trick is the leading edge of bladeholders.
If you got it in front than it's a positive(stabilizing).
If you got it in back - negative


That is only true if there is any delta offset there in the grip design in first place.
If the blade grips operating point is short of the centreline of the rotor hub, it has delta.If the blade grip is also trailing edge controlled then the blade and grip that becomes unstable and rises via damper rubbers, or flex in the blade holder ,gets more pitch added to it via the trailing edge control linkage geometry ,which adds even more pitch to it and tends to aggravate it further rather than help stabilise it.

As far as leading and trailing edge control design goes,i'm not sure
why trailing edge is used
, but think it is a compromise between resistance to chordwise flutter
and less servo control power needed with blades that have a forward chordwise CofG relative to the centreline of grip rotation (head spindle centreline) ,or maybe the opposite,or maybe the best compromise across a range of different chordwise CofG's .Unfortunately when the blade grips have that type of delta offset in them,trailing edge controlled blades suffer worse to control slop and unstable,probably aft CofG blades.

Augusto,did you have a run of bad blades or is it that the CX dampers are causing accelerated blade grip/bearing/spindle slop to occur.I'm just wondering why you didn't decide to do it earlier and why there is a CX damper set for the Freya spindle now?


Martin

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06-02-2004 06:51 PM  13 years agoPost 45
Augusto

rrElite Veteran

US

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Martin,

It was the blades. The grips were pretty tight. We tried SAB, V2s and another brand and neither one of them had a tracking issue. It happened only with some of the MAH G2 blades. I personaly like the way the MAH blades respond so I kept trying to get them to stop going out of track hence the mod. Also if you read the posts about the grip/bearing slop you'll notice that it happened to people with brand new helis and with grips out of the bags. Regarding your question the Freya spindle dampening system was developed as a request from pilots that wanted spindle dampening similar to other helis like the furys, raptors and vigors

That being said we have a new adjustable dampening system that is being flown by all the hirobo XFC pilots as well as some of the reps that's replacing the CX dampeners. This new one was designed to allow for dampening for hovering/autoing to be adjusted separately from the dampening for 3D response. It basically allows you to adjust it to auto like an FAI machine and at the same time have a very tight 3D response that's also adjustable all the way to what we call "hard core stickbanger setting" . The kit includes 27 pieces and will be announced soon.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate

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06-02-2004 07:12 PM  13 years agoPost 46
I3DM

rrProfessor

Israel

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Hey Augusto.
did you also find the same differences like Sluggo did, i.e. faster collective and cylic etc ?
thanks.

PS - i finally found the right ONE PIECE bolts for the CX dampners - these are M4 x 60mm cut down to 45mm (with a 40mm shoulder). im converting all my machines to this method ASAP.

www.liorzahavi.com

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06-02-2004 07:21 PM  13 years agoPost 47
Detroit Steve

rrApprentice

Michigan

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Grip Flip

I've flown the flipped grip mod on my X-spec for about 4 days, and all I can say now is wow. It appears to roll faster, flip faster, and take less power for 3D manuevers. It also feels like the collective response is quicker on center now. I might be seeing things, but I think my heli's top speed is greater now, but that might be pushing it a little. I'm very pleased with how my heli flies, and would like to again thank Augusto for enlightening us on all things Freya. It really is a good thing to get on the computer every once in a while.

Thanks

Steve

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06-02-2004 08:02 PM  13 years agoPost 48
I3DM

rrProfessor

Israel

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For you guys who already tried the grip flip, im just wondering if you flipped the flybar carrier over or used the "middle" hole like Sluggo ?

one more thing, how did you put the blade bolts ? did you put them from the bottom ? i found that even if you put them like they were originally (with the nut now resting the bolt head's place) the nut would still grab well as its a tade larger then the original round hole !

one more question, i just did the mod to one of my X-spec's and had to open the Double link 4 turns (on each blade) to get the proper pitch range, i worked on the double link because the collective rods were already threaded all the way in, so i couldnt shorten them any more. did you find similar results with yours ?

thanks.

www.liorzahavi.com

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06-02-2004 11:08 PM  13 years agoPost 49
MJA

rrKey Veteran

UK

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That being said we have a new adjustable dampening system that is being flown by all the hirobo XFC pilots as well as some of the reps that's replacing the CX dampeners. This new one was designed to allow for dampening for hovering/autoing to be adjusted separately from the dampening for 3D response. It basically allows you to adjust it to auto like an FAI machine and at the same time have a very tight 3D response that's also adjustable all the way to what we call "hard core stickbanger setting" . The kit includes 27 pieces and will be announced soon.
Augusto,
Cool,i'll probably end up getting some of those when they are available.I have the CX dampers which flew great but was concerned it would accelerate wear in the grips,especially with stiffer blades, so wanted a halfway house solution,as i'm not interested in hardcore stick banger rigidness but don't like any spongy lag where the heli body hesitates after the disk either.If it's adjustable with extra washers and different damper rubbers that's even better.I was going to try the harder Hirobo dampers to compare but they are no longer available.

Initially i had no problems with the CX dampers but then while doing some deliberately excessively aggresive elevator flips in a strong headwind, it did a "funny" on the rotorhead part way around a few times.The headspeed didn't bog
but what happened on the disk **** me up so i went back to the original
dampers and everything seemed ok again
.However shortly after that incident/flying day,now with the softer Hirobo dampers,
i started getting some random short duration lockouts
registering on my BC6 monitor that i might have missed seeing
The thing is i had the cyclics set to go on Failsafe to trim neutral(rather than hold current position) so if it happened mid way through the flip it might explain why the disk went weird a couple of times that day

The glitch was caused by an anodised aluminium Kalt T filter hitting the main needle on the C spec intermittantly because the tubing was slightly too long
If i flew the heli normally it would be fine,but everytime i did something more aggresive
i'd come back to check it and could have 1 or 2 hits showing,but not everytime


I've switched to 68cm NHP razor pro's from 68MS blades.I'll do the grip flip too and put the CX dampers back in as i liked them much better than the soft Hirobo originals.Hopefully that should cover all the bases.

Is the 27 piece kit going to be more expensive or similiar price to the centre headblock setup?

Martin

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06-03-2004 11:00 AM  13 years agoPost 50
I3DM

rrProfessor

Israel

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One more question guys, if youre using the stock swash (with 2 long balls and 2 short balls on inner race) the collective rods will now bind against the washout arms when inputing hard cyclic.
what did you do against this ? i currently dont have any spare long balls (QuickUK swash here), so i just used the longer 2 for collective and shorter 2 for washout arms.

any ideas ?
thanks.
-------------------------
EDIT - just found out that the stock swash'es balls fit on the QuickUK one so installed the 2 long ones from the stock swash - no problem.
-------------------------

www.liorzahavi.com

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06-03-2004 11:24 AM  13 years agoPost 51
mrNoodles

rrProfessor

Borlänge, Sweden

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Martin
I think the new CX V2 dampers will cost ~$50.

/Fredrik
'Hm now I just have to find out where to connect the GV1 sensor to the Jazz80 ESC.

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06-03-2004 01:23 PM  13 years agoPost 52
MJA

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UK

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Ok,thanks Fredrik.


Martin

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06-03-2004 06:04 PM  13 years agoPost 53
I3DM

rrProfessor

Israel

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OK guys, i just came back from testing my grip flipped X-spec.
the first thing that i noticed that that the machine now had a wobble with the same RPM as before (normal mode) but im still thinking if this is related to the grip flip or to the fact that i changed the CX damper bolts to the one piece through bolt and nut.
anyway i upped the headspeed some and proceeded to fly. the machine's collective is amazingly fast now ! a real change in tic tocs and such - i like it.
when setting the machine up at home i tuned it for +-11 degrees in idle up like i always do, and it appeared that with this mod, this was too much pitch, the machine would climb like a rocket, but on fast changes from positive to negative while vertical the engine bogged some and the tail lost its grip. anyway i didnt check the exact pitch changes yet, but i had to go from 110% ATV to about 95% ATV on the collective servo.
about the cyclics, they do seem somewhat faster.
overall - did 2 flights today, the collective is blurry fast, and im getting the wobbles in low RPM (not sure why yet) - thats about it.
overall it looks good so far, and ill fly it some more on the weekend.
Enjoy !

www.liorzahavi.com

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06-03-2004 06:47 PM  13 years agoPost 54
Augusto

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US

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Fredrik and Martin,

The list price is $49.95 but the US street price will probably be around $39.00 also it's not just a couple of dampeners it's a set of several dampeners and components that can be exchanged to adjust the response to your liking.

Augusto.

Avant Aurora Ultimate

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06-04-2004 12:35 AM  13 years agoPost 55
Garry-Boy

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Moscow, Russia

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I don't got Freya, but the posts like that burn fire inside of me, so I already started to drop coins inside of pig looking money-box
On this weekend I would fly with guy who got Freya and I'll do this mod after I'll fly on standard version, and I put here my virgin feelings

Garry.

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06-05-2004 09:28 AM  13 years agoPost 56
Ray Nemovi

rrVeteran

SAN DIEGO CA

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yup yup. very easy. and I seen the change with my very own 2 eyes. flutter-flip, no flutter.

Ray N.

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06-06-2004 12:21 AM  13 years agoPost 57
I3DM

rrProfessor

Israel

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Guys, i think i found the down side of this mod, i was out there flying having the time of my life with the super fast collective...

right from the first flight with the grips flipped my X-spec felt like its bogging too much in fast collective changes (NO its not due to collective management, i can do tic tocs 2 feet off the deck easily), somewhat like its got too much collective (remember i had to reduce collective throws because of this ?).
anyway i was flying today and going out of a vertical snake into backwards inverted the engine bogged, which sent the machine into a wobble, and together with the amazingly fast collective (from this mod), the machine boom struck (or so it seems) pretty hard at about 15 feet up, and the damage is quite severe, including a toasted Duralite pack and a broken TJ Pro.
it will be fixed in a few days though.

did anyone else notice that when doing a fast collective change into backwards inverted (WITH the mod) the machine would bog too much and wobble ? i noticed it on the first flight so i immidiately reduced collective throws.
im thinking it might have even fluttered...

now im wondering if i should sadly go back to stock configuration for now.

www.liorzahavi.com

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06-06-2004 12:26 AM  13 years agoPost 58
mrNoodles

rrProfessor

Borlänge, Sweden

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Sad to hear

/Fredrik
'Hm now I just have to find out where to connect the GV1 sensor to the Jazz80 ESC.

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06-06-2004 12:43 AM  13 years agoPost 59
Garry-Boy

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Moscow, Russia

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My god! That is really sad...

Garry

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06-06-2004 03:25 AM  13 years agoPost 60
SAL

rrVeteran

Oakville, Ontario, Canada

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My view...............

Having done the blade flip i really can't say i'm a fan, yes the Freya is that much more responsive and quicker, but at what cost? Well i'm running 7.92 standard ratio on a Ys91 Viperhead, and getting this thing through a consecutive meneuver like a tic toc, really bleeds the headspeed and bogs the rpm of the engine very easily.
Even at +9 / -9 pitch range collective inputs could make the engine struggle, and running 65% atv on the cyclics were too much.
I have since gone back to the standard neg delta, and the X-Spec is singing again..........

Sluggo at 8.45 ratio was happier with the setup, although he too has had some issues, but i will let him elaborate further and post his results.

Augusto thanks for pushing that envelope further, ideas and mods like these that need to be tested to make a great machine like the X-spec even greater!!!!

.

[color=red]SAL[/color]

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HelicopterHIROBOOther › Helping stabilize unstable blades in the Freya
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