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Zoom › Zoom 400 with a DD tail motor
04-29-2004 07:43 PM  13 years agoPost 1
JohnM

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Providence, RI - USA

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After the great success of my fixed pitched micro project, ( http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t100457p1/ ), I decided to use the same tail motor setup on my new Zoom 400.
I can't comment on any performance comparisons between the stock tail setup and my DD tail motor setup because I never tried the stock tail setup. I planned from the start to use the tail motor and sell the stock tail. I can however comment that it hovers as well as my Robbe Eolo did and flying slow small figure eights are even easier with my Zoom. The DD tail motor/Pixie 7P/401 gyro combo hold the tail very solid.

My tail modifications are completely bolt on so one could certainly do some performance comparisons if they wished. I have yet to see how it performs when doing mild 3D (loops and rolls) but will post my results when I do. I am only a beginner heli pilot so I am not looking for 3D performance. I am more concerned with ease of maintenance and repair after the inevitable crashes.

Here are some specs:
* Himax 2025-3200 motor with a 10 tooth pinion and heat sink
* CC Phoenix 35 ESC
* GWS EDP50-XC tail motor with split GWS heat sink and GWS EP-3020 prop
* CC Pixie 7P ESC
* 3 MPI MX-50HP BB servos
* Hitec 555 receiver (modified with the addition of chan-6)
* Futaba 401 gyro
* TP 3S-2100 pack


With the new tail design, tail damage will result in minimal repair cost (to buy all the spare parts for a stock tail the cost is well over $100) and the maintenance is non-existant other than changing burnt out tail motors. No gears to strip or tail wires to slip, or vibrations to cure or broken tail rotors, or tail servos to strip or .......
I also plan to try a brushless motor on the tail once I find a suitable one.

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05-01-2004 02:23 PM  13 years agoPost 2
Helifool

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Rochester New York

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Thats cool but dont you lose some tail performace?

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05-01-2004 07:33 PM  13 years agoPost 3
JohnM

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Providence, RI - USA

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After viewing Alan Szabo Jr's Pic Pro video, I have little doubt that a DD tail motor setup can't perform just as well as a driven tail.
http://www.HeliHobby.com//videos/alan_piccolopro-1.wmv

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05-01-2004 07:38 PM  13 years agoPost 4
tabbytabb

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seattle

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sorry, electric tail doesnt even come close to a driven tail. Had Alan been flying a Hornet 2 in that video he probably would have been piroflipping it indoors

Tabb

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05-01-2004 10:29 PM  13 years agoPost 5
clovis

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Montreal

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But driven tails doesnt even come close to a DD electric tail when it come to crash. And this better in my case...
Bye,
clovis

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05-02-2004 10:31 AM  13 years agoPost 6
toppo

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england LEICESTER

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johnM wat have u mounted on ur zoom for that 401 to go there,

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05-02-2004 01:44 PM  13 years agoPost 7
rusty1

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Ontario-Canada

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How much flying time on the 2100?

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05-02-2004 02:30 PM  13 years agoPost 8
JohnM

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Providence, RI - USA

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tabbytabb
What about Gary's high voltage Hornet II? He replaced the stock tail setup with a DD motor.
Gary states: "In the initial tests, it became clear that the stock tail was having a hard time keeping up, so I started looking for alternatives. What I came up with works amazingly well. It is an AstroFlight Firefly motor/controller combo with a 4:1 planetary gearbox and modified Piccolo prop."
Heres the video: http://www.tryrc.com/video/Hornet%20II%20HV.wmv
And the links to the threads:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ghlight=firefly
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...ghlight=firefly


toppo
The gyro is mounted on a plywood mount that I built. The plywood mount is screwed to the Zoom frame and glued to the carbon fiber tube boom.


rusty1
I have 3 of the 3S TP2100 packs and only fly for 15 minutes on them. I have the low voltage cutoff set very low so I make sure I land before the pack gets discharge too far. I bought these packs for my modified GWS dragonfly (the link at the top of this thread) and I fly that for 20 minutes on these packs.
I don't think the 3S TP2100 pack is the best pack for the Zoom as it is on the heavy side. I am using them because I have them and it balances the Zoom perfectly. I do have one 3S TP1300 pack that I have yet to try. I will put this in when I am ready to try some loops with the Zoom.

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05-02-2004 07:45 PM  13 years agoPost 9
tabbytabb

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seattle

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JohnM, As I understood it at the time, Gary was running such a high headspeed that the stock tail rotor on a Hornet 2 that it was binding. I dont know if this was a setup problem or what. I do know that my hornet 2 with 2600 head speed has an incredibly solid tail in both directions with an equal piro rate.

I am not trying to rain on your parade, its just once you get into flying the heli harder you will likely notice where a electric tail has short falls.

Nice job Though!

Tabb

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05-20-2004 06:24 PM  13 years agoPost 10
Buzzsaw46

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Spring Valley, MN.

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It would seem to me that a dd tail would limit tail performance the same way a fixed pitch head limits heli performance? I'm sure it is easier to setup and maintain but I dont think you will get the same performance other wise we would see Fury's with OS .25's on the tail!!

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05-20-2004 11:09 PM  13 years agoPost 11
JohnM

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Providence, RI - USA

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As I am not a heli expert, I don't feel as I have the knowledge to debate the issue. I was hoping someone like Alan or Gary could enlighten us on the specifics of the dissadvantages of a tail motor versus a driven tail. It is very easy for one to say one is better or worse than the other but I prefer specifics.

My spin on this, (pun intended) is that if the helis in those videos can perform to that extent, my tail motor Zoom can certainly meet my needs. My goal is to master all aspects of controlled non-3D flight so I can move on to scale micros in the future and not have to worry about destroying them. I also like to add a few loops and rolls in every now and again but I don't have any desire to become a 3-D expert.

What concerns me the most now is the time and cost involved after each crash. After over 10 years of flying electric planes I am not used to all these regularly scheduled crashes

I have since crashed the Zoom twice, the first was more of a tip over and the last one was a full loss of radio control from about 100 feet up. I am happy to report that my custom tail has survived both times but the rest of the heli did not fare as well. I am in the process of rebuilding and will be adding some MIA landing gear, some carbon boom supports and some lighter weight paddle attachments.

I hope to report more on how well it handles loops and rolls as soon as it is back up in the air. I have successfully looped and rolled it but the roll rate was way too slow. The lighter weight paddle attachments should improve this.

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05-20-2004 11:47 PM  13 years agoPost 12
Buzzsaw46

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Spring Valley, MN.

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Given your desires I can certainly understand how the motor driven tail would be an advantage to you due to the ease of setup.

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05-21-2004 01:13 AM  13 years agoPost 13
rickc

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Creve Coeur IL. (Peoria Area)

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I am not trying to rain on your parade,
Why do you hang out in the Zoom forum Tabb, you constantly put down the Zooms?

Rick

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05-21-2004 01:52 AM  13 years agoPost 14
tabbytabb

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seattle

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Same reason I hang out in any forum, because I find the stuff interesting, I like to see others helis, and hear their opinions. I think I have the right to put down the zoom as I have owned and flown one. There were some serious issues with the one I had. If and Once those issues are resolved I would consider getting another, until then no thank you.

Besides this discussion was on a electric tail, commenting on that is hardly putting down the zoom. If the electric tail works well for you, great I am glad, as JohnM has said it is undoubtedly more robust then the stock setup.

Last time I checked Mark didnt assign you to personally moderate me so why dont you give it a rest. Lets just leave it at that, its obvious you have some problem with me (why I dont know, dont care). I can voice my opinion all day long, if you dont like it tough s**t.

Tabb

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05-21-2004 01:55 AM  13 years agoPost 15
tabbytabb

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seattle

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JohnM, BTW have you looked over on Rcgroups at all? There are some experimenting with brushless CDrom motors for the tail. That would make a pretty sweet setup for your tail motor!

Tabb

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05-21-2004 02:26 PM  13 years agoPost 16
JohnM

rrApprentice

Providence, RI - USA

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Tabb,
yes I have been paying close attention to the brushless tail motors. I don't have the talent to build a CDrom motor so I am holding out for some production motors. The Python from Hobby Lobby looks interesting. I have also seen some CDrom motors for sale so it's just a matter of time.

On that note, I believe the ultimate tail rotor of the future will be a combination of a standard tail rotor driven on a 3mm shaft of a brushless outrunner motor with the pitch controlled via the normal servo operation. This will fully eliminate any tail shaft drive issues and still provide full tail rotor pitch operation. I am very suprised that I have not seen anyone try this yet.

Buzzsaw46,
I think this would address your point about the limits of a fixed pitch tail rotor.
A nitro driven tail, now that would be a hoot

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05-21-2004 04:00 PM  13 years agoPost 17
tabbytabb

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seattle

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JohnM you might be right on your T/R of the future. Someone did something similar with a shockflyer, put a CP prop system on it that would also work on the T/R of a heli. That would be very cool!

Tabb

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05-21-2004 05:23 PM  13 years agoPost 18
rerazor

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Mich.

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Where can you get ready made CD- rom motors? Price?

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05-21-2004 08:02 PM  13 years agoPost 19
JohnM

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Providence, RI - USA

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07-04-2005 03:01 AM  12 years agoPost 20
bubblehead

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Elburn, IL

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Any further development on using a separate motor for the tail rotor? I've gone through 5 input gears on my Shogun drive shaft today and am sick of messing with it! I've looked at a belt drive but don't want to spend the time (Taus's) or the money ($159.99 at RCHover).

I may try the Shogun V2 with belt drive when it comes out but I'd like to salvage what I have in Shogun parts now!

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