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HelicopterComputer Flight SimulatorsReflex › REFLEX ??NOTHING FEALS REALISTIC
04-30-2004 02:51 PM  13 years agoPost 21
Reflex Products

rrVeteran

Elmshorn, Germany

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As above:

let's start a dialogue:

Tell me what you do. (one manoever at a time)
Tell what it does on the sim.
Tell me what it SHOULD do on the field.

I will modify a few things and send you a new .PAR file. Let's repeat that until all your probs are solved.

Please send me a demo with that flying sequence.

Cheers - wolfgang

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04-30-2004 03:32 PM  13 years agoPost 22
Reesy

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In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

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Hello Wolfgang
I'm hoping to go to a funfly (Goole) this weekend .. There should be some very experienced fliers there who can maybe watch my model and tell me how "realistically" it flies..

From that I might be able to give you a more accurate description of what I'm seeing (but not explaining very well) on the sim.

Many thanks

Paul

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04-30-2004 05:39 PM  13 years agoPost 23
FlyinBrian

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USA

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Galifrey, can you do flipping loops and flying flips in real life and in the sim? In real life you have to force the model thru the maunevers with collective in the sim you have to hold it back.

wsn,

Are there parameters available in the .par files not available to us in the sim?

In the sim the model appears to accelerate forward as the model goes up towards vertical in the loop, in reality its not accelerating its just not slowing down as we are used to in real life. You can adjust the drag in the sim but that slows the fff down too much and the difference between normal fff and pulling the vertical is still there, just different.

If the model was too light yes it would climb too much on verticals but it would also carry a lot more forward speed, but in reflex the fff feels good just the verticals are screwed up.

If the differential between these two can be adjusted please let us know what param in the software it is, I spent quite a few hours playing with them including ones I figured had nothing to do with the problem to see what effects they had.

How are you calculating transitional lift? When I enter fff in the sim it seems as though I dont decrease the collective (as happens in real life) but as I add collective for the loop it appears to be showing up but seems a little exagerated.

Transitional lift is allways present if the blades are somewhat paralell to the incoming wind (as the blades become more perpendicular to the wind the trans lift does decrease but its a smooth transition), does'nt matter if your hovering or in fff / sideways / uprite, vertical or inverted. Tic tocs are a good example where the heli is moving but there is no transitional lift because the air moving is generally moving perpendicular to the blades.

Now if I pump the collective in the sim from 3/4 pos to 3/4 negative when uprite it actually feels rite, pull vertical and do the same thing and the heli feels like it lost 5 pounds, either the weight of the model decreased, the overall drag decreased or transitional lift is showing up.

I think its just a small fundemental problem in the base calculations that effect a lot more maunevers than you realize. I noticed it in the collective pumps, loops, flips, flying flips, piro flips, rolling loops, funnels, knifedge circles, flipping & rolling autos, rolls, etc..

Airplane side of things. During hi alpha flight (flying stalls) the model allways shows a tendency to tourqe and tip stall. This does occur on a lot of models but not most of our 3d models. The higher the alpha angle the worse the tourqe and tip stall tendency gets, no adjustment of the tourqe, side thrust or weight would get the tendencies out. I also could not get rid of the tail oscilations in flight (no wind, parameter down to 0, etc)

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04-30-2004 05:44 PM  13 years agoPost 24
TSKguy

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Cary

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GO Auger!!

Dude you have a way of explaining things very well.
Wolfgang... I agree with what he says......Plus I really suck at typing
it would take me a good hour to type all of that!

E

Obsessed and proud of it!!!

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04-30-2004 07:00 PM  13 years agoPost 25
Reesy

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In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

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Yep ditto that
Auger .. you explain things very well ..

Wolfgang .. I'll leave it to you and Auger

Paul

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04-30-2004 07:52 PM  13 years agoPost 26
G.Man

rrProfessor

Bristol

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Galifrey, can you do flipping loops and flying flips in real life and in the sim? In real life you have to force the model thru the maunevers with collective in the sim you have to hold it back.
No I cant, so I will bow to your experience in this area...

I do have to reduce collective quite a lot in FFF tho to maintain level flight, otherwise it climbs like a s.o.b.

the .par files are where the model parameters are stored... I dont think that there is anything in there that you cant adjust from the sim, but I will bow to WSN in this respect
Now if I pump the collective in the sim from 3/4 pos to 3/4 negative when uprite it actually feels rite, pull vertical and do the same thing and the heli feels like it lost 5 pounds, either the weight of the model decreased, the overall drag decreased or transitional lift is showing up.
This I have noticed on some models, it has made me wonder whether the "blade formula" that has been used is symetrical or semis, as thats how the model seems to behave inverted on some models...

Would like to add that I dont think that Reflex is a perfect sim (yet) but out of all the ones I have tried it just seems more "right" for my level than the others... tru-flight was good as well, but others have felt more like games...

Just one after thought, I did notice that if the headspeed and blade pitch werent set +9 to -9 on the 3dnt and a low headspeed the model did climb much better right way up than inverted, I had to spend a bit of time tweaking both my radio and reflex params to get it to feel "right" to me...

I dont do inverted with the real thing yet, my current skill level does not permit me to comment on 3d, merely FFF scenarios.... except on the sim where I seem to be a lot more advanced... definately a bottle issue with the real thing tho

Don't Email me as I wont reply - PM Only (spam countermeasures)

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04-30-2004 11:40 PM  13 years agoPost 27
Torkroll

rrApprentice

Bakersfield Ca

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Someone try this and comment

One issue : FFF to a climb. The models goes up too well.
Too much transitional lift (or) not enough drag / gravity.

There is no setting for gravity.

You can change "gravity" though.

To increase gravity effects, add 1 KG weight, add 1 KW power, reduce "time expansion factor to .80%

Those 3 changes make gravity stronger and faster acting. There are side effects of this: touchyer and less stable heli.

Now the model (I used Raptor 30) needs to have a little more hover stability and less atv throws added.

Now we are getting somewhere.

My reflex sim R30 doing stall turns will not get anywhere on the upline !! (just like my I.C. R30) hehe


The 60-90 reflex helis need smaller main rotors.
They need (press F5) and reduce "lift performance" and "swash travel"
to make them fly more real and mush, not groove so much.

There is a tremendous difference in the way reflex heli's can fly. Whats unrealistic is having too much power, too much pitch, and too much atvs, and too big a rotor disc.


As for gravity getting weaker as it climbs, I did not address this point. I don't really notice that with my fixes as listed here. I will leave that to WSN if there is something there. Someone try these fixes (try a 30 or a 50) and state if it is helpfull or flawed or whatever.

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05-01-2004 12:10 AM  13 years agoPost 28
Torkroll

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Bakersfield Ca

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Funny Post

"let's start a dialogue:

Tell me what you do. (one manoever at a time)
Tell what it does on the sim.
Tell me what it SHOULD do on the field.

I will modify a few things and send you a new .PAR file. Let's repeat that until all your probs are solved.

Please send me a demo with that flying sequence.

Cheers - wolfgang"

OK
What I do: Inverted auto, piroflip at the bottom and land soft
What It does on the sim: Smash
What it should do: Land nice

Hehe


Seriously somebody lets get this dialogue going ..


Can 4.02 / 4.03 / and XTR demos interchange at all?
Is the coning the main blades do changable by any parameter?

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05-02-2004 03:23 PM  13 years agoPost 29
FlyinBrian

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USA

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Kens,

I tried the raptor in afp, your rite it really does suck. Lower the gear ratio to 7.56, blade weight to 100g, increase the rotor diameter to 122.3, decrease the cyclic to 5.0deg, -8 to +9 collective, fuse weight to 2000g, t/r diameter to 32.8, t/r ratio to 5.1, t/r pitch -16 to +16, hh on and piro rate to 720 deg per second. Raise the engine kw up to 1.2 or so, whatever you like. Its more of a 50 size but defintely better than the stock model.

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05-03-2004 01:14 AM  13 years agoPost 30
Razmo

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Chicago

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Scratch..

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05-03-2004 02:36 AM  13 years agoPost 31
Razmo

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Chicago

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There is one pilot in Germany who is flying an NT AND knows Reflex well enough to tweak it.
I will modify a few things and send you a new .PAR file.
Take 10 kits of a model, give it to 10 modellers, let them select the morors, pipes and servos and you end up with 10 different helicopters flying differently.
Wsn,

With the above said, it would fair to say Reflex takes knowledgable tweaking to gain realistic simulation. I understand support is priority for you so I'd guess it shouldn't be too difficullt for you to collect specific specs of an owners model such as.... servos, pipes & etc and create a matching .par file for them. Therefore you would be providing exactly what you say Reflex can do as well as giving the customer exactly what he/she needs.

For example: If I told you I fly an out of the box Rappy 50v2. What specifics do you need to know about my heli so you can modify a new realistic .par file for me?

Raz

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05-04-2004 08:51 AM  13 years agoPost 32
lozza6

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Sydney, Australia

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what happened to the dialogue?

TSKguy, Torkroll, Gailfrey,

had any improvements to your model?

Loz

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05-04-2004 10:02 AM  13 years agoPost 33
Reesy

rrKey Veteran

In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

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OK I'm probably being a bit naive here but wouldn't it be simpler to have one or all of the following?
1. A sticky "Giant servo comparison chart" equivalent where the relevant adjustments and how they affect the model can be posted by developers and advanced users.
2. A "my setup and what it does" section again allowing the guys who spend hours tweaking parameters and understand the workings.
3. A kind of extended "help" section simply listing the parameters and how each one affects the flight model.

Here I'm not so much thinking of the experts who tweak everything to get it "just so" but more the average Joe with a box Raptor 50 or whatever who's just learning the basics

I know we have a "search" function but going through the gazillions of Reflex posts .. lifes too short

Paul

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05-13-2004 07:37 AM  13 years agoPost 34
Bert

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Slovenia, Europe

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Any news here?

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05-13-2004 11:49 AM  13 years agoPost 35
lozza6

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Sydney, Australia

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yes, updates?

seems wsn is very busy with the new release of XTR...

i understand his point of view of making the controls harder than teh real thing, however i really would love it, if the helicopter behaved exactly the same as the real thing.....

having it more twitchy can hone your balance and precise skills, but also reflects an unrealistic helicopter? you would be able to do things your real one wouldnt be able to do?

i'm not sure, i'm just throwing some ideas in the court...

but it does seem that most people want it to behave as much like their real helicopter as possible....

i hope we get some positive results on behalf of XTR with regards to these points.

Loz

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05-18-2004 02:11 AM  13 years agoPost 36
FlyinBrian

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USA

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I'll 3rd the "yes, updates?"

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05-18-2004 02:37 PM  13 years agoPost 37
TMoore

rrMaster

Cookeville, TN

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There has been some serious hype about this product. From the sound of things it still leaves out some hope that proper parameter files might be forthcoming.

How does this compare to RFG2, Tru Flite and AFP at this point?

Terry

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05-18-2004 02:46 PM  13 years agoPost 38
G.Man

rrProfessor

Bristol

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Sorry I have not been involved with this update of par files, I just tweak my own...

If I get the chance I will run some newuns off and stick em in my gallery

Don't Email me as I wont reply - PM Only (spam countermeasures)

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05-18-2004 03:59 PM  13 years agoPost 39
Razmo

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Chicago

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I would agree that creating a defensive helicopter at times, maybe once or twice (adding faults), can aid for initial training PERIOD. Overall this is total malarkey!

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12-16-2004 10:31 PM  13 years agoPost 40
dogen

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Sweden

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What happened to this thread?

Auger did an awesome job to explain the only thing that me myself has experienced. Did you come up with any solution? I've been requesting some sort of gravity-parameter for long, but everyone told me to fiddle with the time factor, engine power etc etc. That sounds pretty silly to me. Why are all those fancy parameters there for in the first place then? Missusing them would just cause different problems and it makes it so much harder to tweak specific flying properties if you have to fiddle with everything else. Besides, I've never seen a model with normal gravityproperties yet, so the question is if its even possible.

Perhaps my post is just confusing since english isnt my mother tounge. Auger nailed it though and I hope he can fill in, if he still remembers how Reflex behave, that is.

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HelicopterComputer Flight SimulatorsReflex › REFLEX ??NOTHING FEALS REALISTIC
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