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HelicopterGasser Model RC HelicoptersOther › 230PUH acting cranky
04-27-2004 02:58 PM  13 years agoPost 1
Andrew

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Peoria, IL

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I have a 230PUH that I've had for quite awhile, but just doesn't seem to want to break in. I have the WT603 carb and a box muffler (chrome with rear exit, not the stock one). It vibrates like heck and has caused me to throw tail blades three times. The metal from the rear hub sheared off in all cases. I've tried just about every fuel(currently use Ozark), oil ratio, oil type, spark plug, and needle settings. Any ideas how to tame this beast? It's done this since it was brand new.

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04-27-2004 10:42 PM  13 years agoPost 2
Fullagas

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Michigan

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.
What heli?

Sounds like a balance/harmonic problem. Was the tail balanced? That would be first, since the tail show the most impact. Is the engine sound smooth, or warbly and shaky?. All RPMs? Lots of places to look.


.

Flying helis since gyros had springs.

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04-28-2004 06:37 PM  13 years agoPost 3
Andrew

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Peoria, IL

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The engine sound is smooth and powerful. It happens at all rpms and even under load on a test bench. I'm pretty sure that the tail is a symptom and not a problem. On the test bench, I can hold my finger against the mount for a few seconds before it goes numb from the vibrations. I'll give it a try again tonight in the heli and let you know what I find out.

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04-29-2004 02:46 PM  13 years agoPost 4
Andrew

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Peoria, IL

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I take back my earlier statement. The engine isn't smooth and powerful like on the test bench. It's 4-cycling quite a bit while in the heli. I also noticed that my rotor head doesn't rotate perfectly at center. It wobbles a slight bit when I spin it by hand. It must be some component on the head itself because I took the shaft out and spun it on a cordless drill and it's perfect. I measured my flybars as well, and they're showing exactly 48mm of chrome on both sides, so they're ok. The engine is still balking and causing everything to shake and kick. Maybe later, I can post a video of what it's doing so you guys can hear it.

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04-29-2004 05:25 PM  13 years agoPost 5
Fullagas

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Michigan

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.
Forget the cordless drill. If you don't have a dial indicator and V-blocks, put any shaft you suspect (main, spindles, etc) on a piece of glass or a mirror. Slowly roll them, and look for any variation in how they contact the glass. You may have a worn main bearing too, but hard to say. The rotor is wobbling a bunch to throw/shear tail components. Time for the bench for a tear-down.


.

Flying helis since gyros had springs.

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04-30-2004 04:23 PM  13 years agoPost 6
FLYINFOOL

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Cudahy, WI

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Shaken-N-Baken

If you are shaking parts off the heli you have a severe out of balance and/or alignment condition.
Start with the basics.
You said that your finger goes numb after a few seconds on the engine mount on the test stand.
Is the flywheel, fan and clutch shoe properly installed? What is the run out on each? It should be less than .002 inch (much less is better).
Is there something weird like a missing blade on the fan, or something else to throw it off balance?
Have you checked the obvious culprits where everyone assumes its right and never double checks?
Did you check the blade balance? The blade CG? Are both blades the same kind/size? Don’t assume that because they are expensive that they are right. Check them.
I have seen blades with the mounting hole located incorrectly in one blade, check it.
Is the head assembled correctly? Check it. All bearings seated, all spacers in the proper places.
Use Fullagas method to check all shafts.
All of the above items apply to the tail as well.
It could also be an internal balance problem in the engine.
You mention that it is “4-cycling” while in the heli. This usually indicates very off carb settings. Mixture should be adjusted to get it to run better.


These are some places to start. I know that it is a PITA to disassemble everything to check but sometimes that is the only way to find the problem.

Good luck.
Let us know what you find.


Jeff Borowski
RAMS Club President
www.ramsrcclub.com

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05-05-2004 05:01 PM  13 years agoPost 7
Andrew

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Peoria, IL

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I've gotten the engine to the point where it sounds ok, but still vibrates quite a bit. The blades are balanced perfectly. Fan and flywheel are balanced as well. My head shake was cured by moving my flybar a few millimeters. The engine sounds really good at about 40%. Right around 50% I get some rough running and tail kicking. I'm guessing that it might be something balanced incorrectly in the internals of the engine. If I tweak the low needle either way, it starts the roughness and kicking around 40%. I'm running Amsoil 100:1 at 50:1 with camp fuel. Low needle is 1 3/8 (maybe a hair leaner), High is 1 1/4 on a 603 carb /w velocity stack and filter. Moving either needle either way seems to make the vibes worse.

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05-06-2004 03:44 AM  13 years agoPost 8
Andrew

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Peoria, IL

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Root cause found

I found the root cause. I had a couple of stuck rings, which caused the piston to scrape against the side of the cylinder and scratch itself. I've ordered the parts for the rebuild. Thanks to all who helped.

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05-06-2004 03:45 AM  13 years agoPost 9
Chris Bergen

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cassopolis, MI USA

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The gasser engines get real angry when run lean. The fuel will foam, your gyro won't act right, fins will buzz, among other things.

This is what it sounds like yours is doing. Hopefully Bill Meador will jump in here, and help with some insight, but I believe you need to richen you're needles. It may be that you need to go "through" some more roughness and then it will smooth out.

Try richening the high needle more and more until it starts to smooth out.

Chris D. Bergen

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05-06-2004 03:01 PM  13 years agoPost 10
Billme

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MS

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How big of airfilter are you able to run on a velosity-stack? If its not big enough to allow proper airflow, you will run even more richer if you don't compensate with the needles...Sometimes, you have to compensate to where the needle setting doesn't seem right...This is the reason you have to learn what the engine is saying...Yes, you can stick a ring running to rich....
Bill

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05-06-2004 05:15 PM  13 years agoPost 11
Andrew

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Peoria, IL

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I think the stuck ring was due to running some bad oil early on before I knew better. I have a nice large air filter on the velocity stack, so airflow isn't a problem. I'll update this thread with my results after I re-build the engine. I'm pretty sure I have my needles correct at this point.

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05-08-2004 03:12 AM  13 years agoPost 12
Andrew

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Peoria, IL

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Rebuilt the engine with a new piston, rings, some new gaskets, and new cylinder. Didn't touch the needles, still at 1 3/8 low, and 1 1/4 high. Amsoil 100:1 at 50:1 /w ozark camp fuel. So far, smooth as silk /w tons of power when I went up to 1/4 throttle for a few seconds. I honestly wasn't ready for it to wind up that high that early. I guess I'm used to the performance of a stuck ring engine. Right now, the plan is to idle a tank or two through it tomorrow to make sure it's good and lubricated before trying to break it in further. Thanks to all who helped me diagnose this problem. Let me know if you have any further suggestions.

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