RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - Thermal Imaging System

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Aerial Photography and Video > Thermal Imaging System

Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

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I don’t mean to be bad; I only want to be realistic. Airfoil’s thermal camera is impressive and the promo in nice too. But!... by the time you arrive at the location, take the gear out, evaluate locations for emergency landing etc etc etc… the police can only arrest an idiot that was standing there hidden for one hour. By that time the policemen would have found him on foot. Same goes for the fire brigade… by the time you take off it is probably too late. But imagine the scenario where is house is on fire in a residential area and you have fire engines trying to get at the location, people wanting to move their cars out of the way. Spectators all around, and you are there looking for a spot to take off and what about your emergency landing points?

No thanks… I’ll stick with normal cameras!
Just my thoughts, perhaps someone can prove me wrong!

-Angelos

02-17-2004 Over year old.

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Optech
Key Veteran
Location: San Diego, CA.

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Think outside the box a bit.

What about searching for a missing child. Generally the local authorities set-up a search grid. Beofre people walk-in on foot maybe you could pop-up and have looksie.

What about after a fire to oop and look for hot spots that maybe need another dowsing.

At work we have used thermal cameras during war games to verify troop movements without having to turn on lights.

Mike

Viva La Airtronics!

02-17-2004 Over year old.

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4caster
Heliman
Location: Illinois

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Angelos,
You're right...a few times you would show up late for the fun stuff. But, if you work with the agencies, it can work hand in hand. For instance, a tip comes about a theft of anhydrous ammonia, a fertilizer used in the US which is stolen to produce meth. As the authorities quietly assess the situation, you can jump up and spot them in the act with the electric. If the police jump early and they run, you would still see them, and communicate with them to track them.

Now that was a best case scenerio. But, let's take another example. While at a fire, even after the flames are down, firefighters are still cooling down the hot spots Have the camera ready in case a roof or a wall collapses onto the people inside. Hopefully you wouldn't have to, and that is the best-case scenerio. It is a tool that is available and will be used if needed, but rather not, all things aside. And while you are there, take a few shots so that everyone involved can have evidence for futher investigations.

As for our area, since I am well-aquainted with most of the fire departments (being on our local department myself) we have no problem and in most cases move the helicopter closer to the scene and provide some security for takeoff and landing. Biggest reason being that we know that it can help us if needed, as well as showing our department at work for everyone to see.

But, it's alright to say that in some cases, it's not going to be much benefit. Good question to bring up and thanks for asking.

BAClair

02-17-2004 Over year old.

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HawkEye SkyCam
Heliman
Location: Iowa

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Angelos,

I’m not sure about where you’re at in the world but over here in the USA
The system can and is proven to be a life saver.
I have ordered a system because it has the ability to move me
In side off the security lines and lets you work with the authorities.

For example Right now I keep a system that is set up for video and stills with me ready to go all the time just because of the breaking news possibilities but when I get there I’m standing behind the security line or I am pushed back and that’s OK because I still can fly over to where the action is and still get the shot.

When I get my thermal imaging setup I will be able to give the authorities a useful tool in fighting crime, saving lives, search and rescue or what ever they might need help with and that gets me to the front line where the real action is
The real cool thing about this set up is because I am carrying the thermal imaging unit, video camera (with 3 mega pixel still capability) all at the same time. The authorities are getting what they want and at the same time I am shoot video and taken stills and that’s what I want. I just might save somebody’s life, which is the big picture.

I have spent a lot of time talking to the local police department, fire Department and search of rescue. After showing them what the system can do. They were very interested and started coming up with a bunch of different scenarios that I would be able to help.

Here are just a view of their ideas.

In a car crash when people are thrown from the vehicle and the authorities don’t know how many people were in the car they have to spend a lot of time coming the fields around the rack for anybody that might have wandered off and this takes a lot of time.
I can pop up and search a large field in a matter of minutes.

When confronting thief’s and drunk drivers. A lot of times when they are cornered or pulled over they run into the fields and hide most of the time they call in backup and surround the field and wait. Keep in mind the police force is spread thin anyway this system can pop up locate the subject figure out if he has a gun or not and lead authorities to him.

During a fire one of the biggest jobs besides the fire itself is to make sure that nothing else around catches on fire this is where they spend a lot of their time. We can fly around the burning building and check for hot spots to make sure that nothing else catches on fire. This allows them to spend more time at the job at hand.

In bad weather if a tornado or such has came though you can search collapsed buildings
And areas for people.

Searching for people or children that wander off and get lost that is where this system really shines. At $25,000 if it saves one life its worth its weight in gold 100 times over.

Most of what you say is correct and I agree but you have to look at the big picture.
You just might save somebody’s child who knows it might even be my own.

Hawkeye

02-18-2004 Over year old.

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cyber-flyer
Senior Heliman
Location: Boston, MA

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This is a highlight from local news:

48 HOURS LATER, NO TRACE OF BOY, 10
Published on October 16, 2003
Author(s): Farah Stockman, Globe Staff, and Jared Stearns, Globe
Correspondent

LINCOLN, N.H. - A child could run it in a matter of 10 minutes: from the playground, up the hill, across the bridge, and home.

But no trace of 10-year-old Patric McCarthy has been found, more than 48 hours after the Bourne, Mass., boy declared he would race his stepbrothers back to their family's condominium and then took what police believe was an ill-fated path through the woods...

4 days later the boy was found frozen to death...
just 2 miles away from his home...
despite hundreds of people searching for him...
Imagine what helicopter with thermal imaging can do in such situation.

Regards,
Val.

02-18-2004 Over year old.

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Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

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Guys,
The issue is not what the thermal camera can do. Police has been using them for years from their helicopters and even handheld ones. The question is if you are ever going to make it to the scene of time. The way I see it, for crime, fire, etc situations you would have to live quite close to be able to get there on time. As for missing persons, sure it could perhaps help a bit but it is nowhere as good as a full scale. If I was the parent of a missing child I would pay a couple of hundred $£ for a full scale helicopter to fly over and have a look. Height, speed, stability allows to cover larger areas quicker than an RC pilot can walk behind his model and go back to refuel every 10 minutes. Then charge the battery packs every four flights. Let’s be realistic… RC models can take nice aerial photos but they are not so good for this job. The way I see it, there are better chances to take a life if you are carelessly flying over people than to save one.

Strange but everyone who takes aerial photos say how careful they are assessing the site and looking for more than one alternative landing spots for autoing etc and suddenly all this is ignored in an attempt to get there and take some aerial footage of the scene.

-Angelos

02-18-2004 Over year old.

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heliraptor
Key Veteran
Location: Colchester, Essex, UK

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Hi

I put a case together last year to my force regarding the use of the remote helicopter and provided a good business plan including the use of thermal imaging.

Whilst it may be great for you guys in the US, recently we have invested several million in equipping our EC135 T2 in the latest hardware to enable it to do such a task.

In short the idea was laughed at, and they came up with a very good argument against it, we only have a relatively small county compared to states in the US and driving across it probably only takes just over an hour, in that time the moment has passed.

If it were my kids, I'd want the 135 up any day, it will be here within 7 minutes and as Angelos says, it can cover a larger area, at greater speed, and if its remote can even land to administer first aid etc and take the patient away if needed.

I can see where it may be helpful and I am not knocking it at all, I think its a remarkable piece of both engineering and thought by John what he has managed to accomplish and wish him the best of luck.

Maybe the guys over here are short sighted, I don't know, boy I'd love the job if it came up, but I don't see it happening. Maybe the Fire service might be interested but I know they use their own thermal cams, I guess all they have to do is stick up a ladder on the 'Snorkel' and they are doing the same job.

I can see everyone's point, but really have to go with Angelos mainly from a standpoint and my personal experience in the UK.

Lee

02-18-2004 Over year old.

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Polariman
Senior Heliman
Location: Annandale, Minnesota

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Here in Minnesota we are having increasing problems with traffic, missing children, and illegal drugs. All the local and county law enforcement agencies have to share the state trooper helicopters for all of the above. Plus, with being wise in government spending we are not shelling out cash when the law enforcement says they need more money so they NEED to MAINTAIN a budget. Sad to say but they sometimes they make life and death decisions based on budget. Therefore there are many many times they would like to use the state helicopter but can't. AH HAH! OPPORTUNITY!!!! I haven't seen airfoils pricing yet but I am willing to bet it is less than a state trooper helicopter. IF IT IS AVAILABLE... ... THEY WILL USE IT (kinda like if you build it, they will come).

02-18-2004 Over year old.

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cyber-flyer
Senior Heliman
Location: Boston, MA

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Quote
If I was the parent of a missing child I would pay a couple of hundred $£ for a full scale helicopter to fly over and have a look.

If I remember correctly full scale helicopter was eventually brought in (on a 3rd day or so) but it was too late. In many cases it is just a question of money and convenience.
I am not saying that any Raptor pilot should just jump into rescue missions - but somebody who has experience and right equipment.
Compare expenses of calling full scale heli 200 miles away from closest helipad to driving in your track right to the spot. If model heli equiped with right downlink and flight stabilization system - it can easily cover few square miles in one flight.
Look forward, not backward.

Regards,
Val.

02-18-2004 Over year old.

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polyhedron
Senior Heliman
Location: Amite, Louisiana, USA

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Well, i guarantee this system will have good specific applications. I really don't think that anyone is expecting this to catch on like wildfire though.

John makes money and keeps busy with his thermal cam, that's probably why he decided to offer it to other people.

--Matt

02-18-2004 Over year old.

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HawkEye SkyCam
Heliman
Location: Iowa

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Angelos

Quote
The issue is not what the thermal camera can do. Police has been using them for years from their helicopters and even handheld ones. The question is if you are ever going to make it to the scene of time.

There is a lot of talked about getting to this scene in time if you have one of these in your community and you are working with the local officials you will get there just as fast as they do and you will be notified at the same time. In fact you’ll get their way before a full-size will and there is no guarantee they will ever get there.
Let’s just say, you’re in one of the very few areas that even have a police helicopter. Before that helicopter gets authorization to launch the officials on site have to determine if it is needed then they notify their boss and he decides yes or no. Unfortunately that decision could be based on can we afford it, does this situation justifies the cost. Unfortunate this is reality. And you will be surprised to know that most of them are not equipped with thermal imaging because they can’t afford it they can barely afford to even have the helicopter at all.

cyber-flyer

Quote
If I remember correctly full scale helicopter was eventually brought in (on a 3rd day or so) but it was too late. In many cases it is just a question of money and convenience.

This is a perfect example if they had one of Airfoils Thermal Imaging Systems located in their community it is a very good possibility that child would be alive today and that’s what were talking about cost effective and availability

polyhedron

Quote
I really don't think that anyone is expecting this to catch on like wildfire.

I could be wrong but I think you’ll be very surprised at the response that this system is going to get .There are very few towns that can afford a full-size helicopter. But most of them can afford one of these.
I am on the list to get one and win I am done, it won't cost me a dime the community will pay for it.

Have fun be safe
Hawkeye

02-23-2004 Over year old.

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MPA
Elite Veteran
Location: Australia

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Someone mentoned regional considerations.
As important a factor as it is to photography viability.

In the USA you have a different situation from others.

In Aus (which is not unlike UK) there is no statutory authority below the state level so everything proposed to be used by state police, state emergency services or state fire brigades would have to satisfy the state level bureau to consider using it.
And then in the advent of an incident it would be summoned to use or "dispatched" by the state police radio controller, being the same person who issues the order for the full size heli so in that, the Helicam would be subject to the same papaer shuffling.

In the USA you have county level authorities as well as state I beleive and so would be able to operate directly with that authority.

Then there is the fact because we have state level authorities only they are a completely unionised workforce, police, ambo's and firebrigades.

Talk Helicam to them and they talk OH&S matters, simply put the union would beat up sensation about it's worker being endangered by the Helicam working in close proximity.

In the US you dont have this problem so much with a unionised workforce that excersizes high dilligence on OH&S matters.

There is a system established to ensure Police and others dont contract services on their own without authority.
Window shutter services for example, the police here must call state radio dispatcher who then call the window shutter contractor.
The Police staions near me would have no authority to call me up for the Helicam and would not be allowed to call me up to tell me there was an incident.
They would have to call the appropriate person at the state level to authorise the contracted service being the Helicam.

In addition I would probably have to be registered as an non sworn employee of the force for that period if I was working in any way with the Police members on site.
Why, because they are in the union and contractors are not welcome so they are put through a process to generally disuade anyone from contracting services to them.
The Union would have the state purchase Helicams and have trained sworn officers (in the Union) operating them, or not at all..

Ambulance and Firebrigade the same.

Fire brigades out of towns are the CFA (country fire authority) but they are a volunteer organisations that make money from donations and chook raffles.
They have a huge pile of things they wish they had to use before a Helicam but cant afford any of it.

When John first announced this I showed the links to a few people in Emergency services here, just for interest to see what they had to say about it and nothing about providing it to them.

Mostly they reffered to the differences between US and here and other simply said they would not tollerate such a thing in their work place.
In fact I didnt get a single sign of interest to use it from anyone, just the opposite.

But like I say this all depends on where in the world YOU are.

In places like the US where you have more direct lines of approach with localised statutory authorties then its sure to get interest.

For others who live under the same as us in Aus with everything at state level and a high proportion of unionsed state authority workers there are some real obstacles to it.

Rgds

02-23-2004 Over year old.

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daggit
Elite Veteran
Location: Waseca MN

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I would agree that this system is not for every helicam operator.

The thermal imaging system really needs to be in the hands of an experienced operator who constantly has his finger on the pulse of his commumity. The operator needs to be in close contact with local emergency teams (perhaps he would actually be a volunteer fire fighter or similar) and/or news station.

The price of the thermal system virtually gaurantees that only serious people would have one, even though it's much cheaper than full size.

I'm also sure that the thermal imaging equipment would NOT fit the bill for EVERY situation. It's no different than any other emergency equipment though.

Take stroll thru your local fire deptment. How much of that equipment get used on every call? Some of it won't see action more than once a year other than practice, but it's that ONE time that makes all the difference.

That's why they have it... that's why they need it.

02-23-2004 Over year old.

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Angelos
Key Veteran
Location: nr Oxford, OX11, UK

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Quote
The price of the thermal system virtually gaurantees that only serious people would have one, even though it's much cheaper than full size.

The price of the thermal system virtually guarantees that you will never make your money back. Even if you have enough business the chances are that you will have more than one crashes before you even recover its cost of such system. Oh yes… I know you need to regularly check and service the heli. However, thinks keep going wrong no mater what we do and we all have experience of that.

02-23-2004 Over year old.

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daggit
Elite Veteran
Location: Waseca MN

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I don't think many people will buy one 100% with thier own money. Most of them sold I'd bet would be a community effort.

I know I woudn't buy one on pure speculation, with 100% my own money. I'd want the community behind me. There may even be a grant possibility for something like this (in the U.S. anyway)

02-24-2004 Over year old.

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