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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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The boating is just a mere 10cent comparative. No more no less.

I know it better then scale helis so I gravitate towards it... and their numbers are better and lets face it.. pound for pound the boat market is smaller then the heli market (in general).

Thank for all the input..

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-02-2016 12:38 PM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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Lets get down to brass tacks... a few simple ones to ask yourselves..

#1: We all agree we have a lul in entries regarding AMA Nats 518?
#2: We believe "Some Kind Of Change" is needed to get the participation to grow? (Or is it just the stagnant heli market?)
#3: We feel the scoring has been problematic in the past, confusion, not enough help so on?
#4: We feel adding prizes to the event and having media support will help the effort?

GO DALTON!

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-02-2016 03:05 PM
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BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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You coming down?

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

09-02-2016 05:14 PM
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Grimracer

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Eau Claire WI

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Man I wish i could.. rebuilding.my vacation has been a pain...

Michael J Zaborowski

09-02-2016 05:40 PM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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800 Plus views in 10 or so days.. wow.. fantastic..

Looks to me like the interest is still alive. I suspect a better understanding and we could be back to good numbers..

So.. what would you guys say is a "good number" of competitors at the NATS.. How many pilots would you say it takes to make the event a hit..

5-10
10-15
15-20

so on...

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-07-2016 08:24 PM
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payne1967

Elite Veteran

uk

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getting the balance right on how many pilots is a fine art
too few and its all over in a flash
too many and the event drags on forever with frustrated pilots awaiting the result

member of save the flybar foundation

09-07-2016 08:52 PM
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CoachE

Senior Heliman

Cincinnati, ohio -usa

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When it comes to something like this it depends on the average amount of time it takes to do the flight round. And don't forget the static/model run of judging. I'm thinking something like 20 min. Per. 5 min for flight, 15 for modeling. With a 5 min buffer between each.
So a morning would look like
Morning static/modeling
9 to 915 Pilot A
920 to 935 pilot B
940 to 955 pilot C
10 to 1015 pilot D
1020 to 1035 pilot E
1040 to 1055 pilot F
And so on till noon lunch.
Afternoon flghts
1 to 105 pilot A
110 to 115 pilot B
120 to 125 pilot C
130 to 135 pilot D
140 to 145 pilot E
200 to 205 pilot F
And so on..... you can mix up the pilot flight order by morning lotto drawing.

If my figures are correct one panel of judges can comfortably judge 12 competitors.

Panel staffing... 1 headjudge, 2 support judges,1 safety judge/complaint screener. 1 runner/ operations

What are you guys thoughts??

Get !T - Got !T - Perfect !T

09-07-2016 10:33 PM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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Dalton is in the books.. anymore thoughts on this?

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-19-2016 01:55 PM
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Peter Wales

Key Veteran

Orlando Fl

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At Dalton, a small group of us went through the rules and essentially put them back as Joe wrote them many years ago. A few small changes were made like eliminating the no metal blades rules, and a major change made to the scoring so that the static score maximum equaled the flying score maximum, so a builder had as much chance as a flier, but the winner would be the builder who could fly

I dont agree with timing the judging. When I was running the Nats I had no problem when I had 15 entries. The major difference was that it was run in July not at IRCHA and so getting the scores was easier. I would publish all the scores for each round at the end of the day, except for the last round. That eliminated the folks who thought they knew who won, from announcing it and getting it wrong.

Prizes do not attract entrants! Most prizes are on Ebay the next day.
The desire for some kind of change may happen quicker than you think as Darrell has decided he is entering the Nats next year and will not be running it. So the new CD can get to work getting entrants like I did.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

09-19-2016 07:10 PM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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Very good.. so there is interest in change. Scale Helicopter Competition is not dead.. on life support but not dead.

Hum...

I would like to see these rules or what they were "put back" to.

Thanks

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-19-2016 09:51 PM
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Peter Wales

Key Veteran

Orlando Fl

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You will need to talk to Darrell about that.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

09-19-2016 10:14 PM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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Are they not written some place?

If anybody has a set of the "old Rules" let me know.. in the mean time I will call Darrell and see what he has.

How far back did they change.. Maybe AMA still has them. And I suspect they will not change for 2017 knowing the process that it takes to get change.

Send to Grimracercnc@yahoo.com

Thanks

grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-19-2016 11:02 PM
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BarracudaHockey

rrMaster

Jacksonville FL

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I just want to note that AFAIK the rules were not actually changed, changes were submitted to be put through the current rule making process.

Peter feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com

09-20-2016 07:47 PM
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Peter Wales

Key Veteran

Orlando Fl

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The changes we made were initially to put the rules back as they were. They seemed to have been changed slightly over the years and no one knows why or who changed them.

Once they were back to the original, the things we have learned over the years were added or subtracted to tidy the rules up.

As the acting CD this year, Darrell is talking to the AMA and I am not privy to when or what changes will be in force for next year, and even if I was, it would not be my place to tell what they are.

Darrell will release information when everything is concluded. but one thing I can tell you all is that none of the changes will increase the number of entries, so that is still your challenge Grim. Forget about the rule changes and continue to concentrate on getting more entries.

I will repeat, that Darrell has elected to resign his position as CD at the end of the year and so if anyone feels competent to take over his slot, stand up and be counted.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

09-21-2016 02:21 AM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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Had a long post ready.... DELETE..lol

As soon as the rules are updated and written and on the AMA site.. (not posted on here..lol)we should be good to go.

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-21-2016 04:24 PM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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I would like to generalize here If I can..

In the AMA rule set for 518 there is no mention of "normalizing" the score. (it is under "14- Classification".. but at Number 4 under characteristics it lists the exception of 518 and goes on to the other classes from that point too the 518 call out.

Could be read a few ways BUT.. I don't think we are to normalize our 518 contest scores?

can somebody else read this and see what they come up with.

Would RELLY like to see the scoring be simpler in this event.

Grim

Da-RULES..https://www.modelaircraft.org/files...CHelicopter.pdf

Michael J Zaborowski

09-21-2016 06:20 PM
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Peter Wales

Key Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Then you need to propose a rules change to section 14

14. Classification
The classification for a single round is determined by normalizing the raw scores
against the highest score for that round. Normalized score = raw score/high score
for round X 1,000 (two (2) decimal places, i.e., XXX.XX.

Just add excluding 518

We have been trying to get the AMA to do this for years but they love the winner to get 1000 points regardless of class.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

09-22-2016 02:39 AM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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Peter.. I think the way its written 518 class does not apply. Its that disclaimer at #4.. looks like this covers EVERYTHING to the 518 class call out. Ya almost have to read everything past #4 to understand.

Trust me.. I am not questioning your expertise. But this is VERY easy to misunderstand. IF nothing else it the poor definition might give us an out.

Looks like we follow to #4.. then skip to 518 class...

The rules from 4 on deal directly with aerobatics. Field layout and all. It does state in 518 portion that we use in part the field layout from the aerobatic section but not the details.

Anyway.. no harm.. no foul.. I personally don't like normalizing all it does is flatten data and confuse most for no reason.. We do it at work with test data but its just not needed here. And I suspect we don't need to do it in 518.

I like raw scores.. It help ME understand what area I need to work on.

On we go.

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-22-2016 03:06 AM
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Peter Wales

Key Veteran

Orlando Fl

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Its not me you have to convince! I agree with you and so did most of us at the discussion at Dalton. However, the AMA calculates the scores and its them you have to convince that only the raw scores are needed.

It does state in section 14 that the raw scores will be made available to the entrants as soon as possible, but the official final result will be normalized.

Peter Wales
http://scalehelicopters.org

09-22-2016 11:32 AM
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Grimracer

Veteran

Eau Claire WI

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Could not be more confusing...Right.. section 14 does not apply to 518.

Nothing past 4 until 518 apply.

Indeed we need more clarification from the AMA.

Thanks Peter for jumping in.

Grim

Michael J Zaborowski

09-22-2016 12:45 PM
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