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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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I apologize ahead of time for posting this 2 places but I'm afraid that it may not be seen in the other spot.

Here's a solution for tail failures that may or may not exist.
Flybarless with bail out and headless mode.
Bailout can level a Heli even if it's pirouetting.
So if the flybarless had a bank or channel reserved for tail failure that incorporate a headless mode (it's a feature on some drones that allows you to control tilt and travel related to the external environment and not the aircraft orientation), you could flip that switch it would level the Heli and then interpret cyclic commands "stirring" them for you to allow you to navigate the Heli to a safe location for landing.
Drones calibrate the headless mode via satellite or radio signal. This would be useful with the Heli but not necessary.
It would only need to "lock" the headless input. So after the failure and you have a level pirouetting Heli you give it a small elevator command and you will know the headless orientation. Allowing you to bring the Heli to a safe place to land.
Most flybarless could do this with a software update.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-22-2016 07:50 PM
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Gyronut

rrProfessor

Martinsville In.

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I have a switch on mine that says auto.......

Rick

08-22-2016 08:28 PM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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As you may or may not be aware that switch only stops current to the motor.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-22-2016 08:54 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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Gyro

The reason I thought of this is because at IRCHA there was a tail failure that put a Heli into the crowd.

This simple feature could have prevented that and saved the Heli.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-22-2016 09:02 PM
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ticedoff8

Key Veteran

Morgan Hill, CA. USA

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It isn't "bailout"
It is referred to as "Rescue".

It should basically work already.

The "Rescue" mode in flybarless gyros relies on accelerometers.
The 3 axis accelerometers detects "level" at initialization by sensing "down". Basically, the 1G of gravity that keeps us on the Earth is being applied on the X and Y (cyclic roll & elevator) axis.
The Z axis is rotation (pirouette) and the CPU looks at that to make sure it is stable at the time of initialization. But, the CPU doesn't know N from S or E from W. It just knows "stopped" or "rotating"

Then, the CPU keeps track of the all the changes in X & Y attitude, forces and in which direction and how long the force was applied by monitoring the accelerometers.
But, the CPU is only monitoring the swash (X & Y) - not the tail (Z).

Then, when you hit "Rescue", the CPU assumes it knows what the attitude (X & Y) of the heli currently is (based on its logging the accelerometers) and applies the needed X & Y "correction" to get back to horizontal.
It still relies on the TR gyro to hold the tail during the Rescue.

In a case of a simple loss of tail drive, the FBY gyro will level the heli with an "out of control" pirouette.
But, it is at least level.

After that, it is up to the pilot.

How do you maneuver a level but pirouetting heli in a direction that does the least damage (crowd or hardware)?
I bet you don't practice that too often.
Most cases: The pilot freaks out and crashes into the crowd anyway.

Personally, I had my share of tail drive & servo failures.
But, I practice the pirouetting maneuvers as much as possible.
I always get the heli level then hit Throttle Hold and dump it in. That way, I avoid hitting other heli, hardware or people.
I've only tried to save one heli after the tail rotor control rod came off - and that ended in a chicken-dance. But, I tried to save it in a wide open empty field and I was alone.

If the tail throws a blade: forgetaboutit.
The sudden huge spike in vibration will swamp the accelerometers in a heartbeat.
The CPU will lose track of the current orientation of the heli because the accelerometers are showing vibration forces instead of actual data.
Any Rescue attempt could flip the heli into a completely different direction from "level" and it becomes a crap shoot where it is headed.

I wasn't there. But, I saw video and read some of the replies to emails to IRCHA about it (posted in the Helicopter Safety forum).
At IRCHA - The organizers hide their heads under a blanket and assume the "**** Happens. Get over it" attitude.
They say "Heli crashes are expected. So, bring GrandMa and get a front row seat. Too bad if she gets hit in the dentures by a 700mm blade".

Image it NASCAR didn't make changes to the catch fences at Talledega or Daytona after cars went over and through the catch fences?

IRCHA needs to come out from under the blanket and take safety seriously.

That's a better solution than "Rescue".

My sig is not fit for public viewing.

08-22-2016 09:46 PM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Bailout, rescue

Point being with this simple added feature you could also navigate a pirouetting Heli.

So you can put it in a safe place before you auto.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-22-2016 09:50 PM
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ticedoff8

Key Veteran

Morgan Hill, CA. USA

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Like I said. Rescue exists.
And, Rescue can help under certain TR failures.

If you are willing to invest $99 in a MSH uBrain (micro-Brain) you too could have a FBL gyro with "Rescue".

Since all governors built since the Earth cooled have Bailout, I prefer "Rescue" instead of "Bailout".

And, BTW, "Rescue" is not the same a "Auto Level" / "Self Level".
They are similar, but not the same.

My sig is not fit for public viewing.

08-22-2016 10:00 PM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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I dont think you get what I'm saying,
Have you flown a drone with headless mode?

What I'm proposing would be a 3rd feature.

Bail out or auto level
The fb unit controls cyclic to level the Heli

Rescue
The fb unit controls cyclic and collective to maintain altitude with negative collective if inverted, level the Heli, and add positive collective.

Rescue with headless for tail failure.
The Heli would perform the rescue function and then give you a reduced cyclic control altering your inputs based on the the heli's yaw sensors so that you could navigate to a safe location reduce altitude and then auto down. Preventing possible injury and property damage, including the Heli.

These are all things that some of the best pilots can do without fbl systems,
But we have them,
They can do this, so why shouldn't they?

This type of rescue would work regardless of the type of tail failure. If a tail servo fails and is locked at a deflection, autorotation will not help you gain any control.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-22-2016 10:21 PM
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ticedoff8

Key Veteran

Morgan Hill, CA. USA

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Check the Skookum (http://www.skookumrobotics.com) SK-720BE, SK-GPS2 GPS receiver (with barometric altimeter) and SK-LZR laser altimeter.
I had these on my Trex 600E Pro DFC for a while.
I never tested it with a full blown TR failure though.

It may give you the true rescue feature from the type of TR failure that occurred at IRCHA.
And, it has "Return to Home" (just like a quad).

Only $1,000 and the crowd could be safe from at least one type of TR failure.

And, Art likes the term "bail out" instead of Rescue.
So.. there ya go.

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08-22-2016 11:00 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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But what I'm suggesting could be accomplished with a software update.

Or at the very least, very little change to the hardware.

It doesn't need a GPS or any extra sensors.

It just needs to use the yaw rpm to modify the cyclic inputs.

I don't need it
I don't want it

But I see the potential for using existing technology to prevent damage.

It would be more likely to be on more machines if it wasn't added equipment.

If you don't see a purpose for it, that's fine we are allowed to disagree.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-23-2016 12:53 AM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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The only drawback is if you leave a heli powered up with a rudder failure, it will start to piro 100 times faster than any functioning quad is able to.
I can't see more than a 3 second window of time for this to possible level the heli and get it back out in the flight field before requiring TH to be used...

08-23-2016 01:44 AM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Quad stabilization also isn't on par with Heli stabilization.

If a pilot can piroflip,
I guarantee you that the ikon can measure yaw rpm and dole out modifications to the cyclic inputs fast enough to match.

I only brought up the quad, because that's the only place I've seen the whole"headless" mode.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-23-2016 01:48 AM
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Jabber

New Heliman

Hong Kong

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Only theoretical, never tried it but thought it could be an answer, but if the tail drive or control fails for any reason, could one just open the throttle wide to get some height, then autorotate? In the old days, we didn't have a driven tail for autorotation, but relied on forward speed to settle the Heli down, although big turns were limited. So, open up, get height, cut the motor, put the nose down and fly out of trouble. A I said, just a thought

I am not about to try it unless sh.. Happens but if anybody gives it a go I would love to hear if it works!

08-23-2016 01:46 PM
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ticedoff8

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Morgan Hill, CA. USA

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Only theoretical, never tried it but thought it could be an answer, but if the tail drive or control fails for any reason, could one just open the throttle wide to get some height, then autorotate? In the old days, we didn't have a driven tail for autorotation, but relied on forward speed to settle the Heli down, although big turns were limited. So, open up, get height, cut the motor, put the nose down and fly out of trouble. A I said, just a thought

I am not about to try it unless sh.. Happens but if anybody gives it a go I would love to hear if it works!
Think abut how well this would work for you if you are inverted when the tail sh!ts the bed.
Basically, your heli arrives at its final destination much faster.

The reality is that anyone that is proficient at pirouetting flight is not challenged by a tail rotor failure of any kind.

No Rescue / Bailout / Self Level / Auto Level / Punch out and climb needed strategies.

Just a piro-flip to level then transition in the direction that is safest and hit T-Hold when you are ready to land.

My sig is not fit for public viewing.

08-23-2016 08:54 PM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Ok what about everyone else?

So sport pilots shouldn't be flying big helis?
Because they can't control a malfunction?

This was the same argument against gyros, then against heading hold, and against flybarless.

If you can't really fly,
You shouldn't be.

And there is a lot of value in being a proficient pilot without all the bells and whistles.

But there is a place for this feature.

It doesn't matter, it will happen.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-23-2016 11:36 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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Still... You have about 3 seconds, or less if you hit full throttle. People can fly pirouetting probably at a rate of 540 degrees per second. ( 1 1/2 revs per second ) but above that, I don't know anyone that can manage a faster piro rate.

08-23-2016 11:55 PM
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jharkin

Senior Heliman

Holliston, MA - USA

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Assuming you have enough altitude and your existing rescue function goes to upright in all orientations:

If you loose the tail.. hit TH immediately.

Then blip the rescue switch for just as long as it takes the heli to level upright and release it. If its a larger model (600/700) you should have enough blade momentum to accomplish this without a blade stop.

Now drop collective, pitch forward and start your normal auto. Since the motor is off the torque is gone and forward motion should weathevane the tail and stop the rotation eventually.

-Jeremy
Whiplash-G
Helix 700G
T-Rex 450 fbl conversion
alot of planks

08-26-2016 02:52 PM
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Jabber

New Heliman

Hong Kong

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Great idea, but some of us don't have a rescue thingy so I suppose we are buggered...

08-26-2016 03:01 PM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Jharkin
You don't have time navigate. You can only bring it more or less straight down. Especially after gaining altitude at God only knows what angle before the Heli levels out.

People keep talking about "flying beyond your skill level" and yes no one should be doing that at competitions.

But the rest of us,
That's how we learn.

The first instinct in a close call is to get altitude. Most of us have that down. Hitting throttle hold when we realize there's a failure is next.

So adding in this rescue for tail failure would allow learning pilots the control to be able put an out of control Heli down in a specific (safe) place.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-26-2016 04:26 PM
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revmix

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NJ

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not needed auto control for r/c flying, just keep away from any object enough distance & no close call

08-26-2016 04:33 PM
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