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ProModeler Scorpion Power
Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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If you put the 6s on the 450 and get the same flight time with the 6s 1350 compared to the 3s 2200 and 3s is burning a max of 66 amp and the 6s is burning 33 amps to accomplish the same thing then the 6s is easier on equipment.
It is easier on some equipment. You can run a lower amp ESC so it is easier on that... the motor will still be consuming the same power. 12v ( 3s pack ) and 66 amps is 792 watts of power. 12 x 66 = 792
24v and 33 amps equals the same 792 watts of power. so your motor will still be working the same.
Also on the 6s system for the same flight time you are using a lot less mah per minute. 586 compared to 333. That is easier on equipment also.
Your numbers are not right here... one will be double of the other when comparing apples to apples. ( same heli, same weight, same performance )
For instance if I have this right and flying you can correct me if I am wrong but say a 30c 5000 pack would be constant 150amps.
This is correct.
That is fact. Just read nobody said they will get more power
Power is the wrong word to use here. What you do benefit from a higher C rated pack, is more POP, I will call it.
A quick explanation... every battery, circuit... anything will have voltage drop when you are pulling power from it. The best LiPo in the world will have some voltage drop when even pulling 1A from it.

A LiPos C rating is directly tied to its IR. Lower IR, higher C rating. with a 6s 5000mAh 30c pack, you pull that 150a surge, not consistently, but you do a hard stop or transition and that 150a was required to do it. With that 30c pack, the voltage will drop say .1v per cell so .6v total, and a 50c pack would drop only .085v per cell, so a .51 voltage drop. ( don't know what the actual drop would be but the higher C rated pack would have less drop )

This is not a big difference and may not be noticed. Where this will give you more POP is when the GOV had to hit full throttle to pull off your maneuver. ( follow me here, it will get a bit complicated )
Full charged 30c pack is 25.4v sags to 24.8v because of the voltage drop... and a current of 150A means a circuit resistance of 0.16533 Ohms. this yields 3720 watts of power at that moment in time.
The 50c pack under the same conditions drops to 24.89v so you would get a 150.55a from that pack ( since the circuit resistance doesn't change ) and it yields 3747 watts of power.

I warned you this would get complicated...

So the 50c pack doesn't contain more power but it can give you a sense of more power.

08-31-2016 07:59 PM
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LaDon

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Sure I understand that but one thing. Back to the 450. The 6s 450s have more performance than a 3s. Ppl have proven that. One friend of mine did this. Personally I haven't just because I have all the 3s stuff. I ain't throwing that away just for a 450. But his 3s Heli was fine. Now he is ripping main gear teeth off. He is using a 1350 mah pack. If the total system didn't make more power then why is it tearing stuff up now. Also now one other question here. If it was all the same and the 6s pack was 2200 just to even it and it was 30c then you would have 66amps also. You need to tell me how that motor will have the same power as the 3s system when the volts are double. Granted we know the kv must be different to work but I think you know what I mean. That is where I am going here. With more volts it appears you can get away with less amperage to make the same power. Am I correct on that?

Don't go to the IR stuff and that as we already know and don't disagree there.

Team Jr

08-31-2016 08:13 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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Here are MY thoughts on LiPos... I buy packs with the highest C rating I can afford. Here's why...

You have a heli running off a governor. New strong packs it flies just fine. You look at your ESC log after flying and notice the highest throttle out to maintain your HS was 89% Awesome!

As your packs get older ( meaning the IR of the cells has climbed a bit with also means the actual C rating of the pack has dropped a bit ) You look at your ESC log again and notice that the highest throttle position now has hit 97%. That is awesome still... it will still be flying just like the day you bought it.

Why the change though? Because your fresh LiPos ( with the lower IR meaning higher C rating ) voltage drop was only .51v when your heli needed 3747 watts of power. ( watts is the measure of power ) Then after the packs got older, they dropped .6v like the example above, you would onlt have gotten 3720 watts but since it needed more, the GOV had to add even more throttle to hold your HS.

Eventually getting to the point where the GOV is hitting 100% throttle and the HS starts to bog.

If you start with better packs, it just takes that much longer for those packs to have their IRs get high enough to start bogging the HS.

I hope this is understandable... it is written im my own language so I completely understand myself.

08-31-2016 08:15 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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The 6s 450s have more performance than a 3s. Ppl have proven that.
This is because they have a larger pack. 6s 1350 contains more energy that a 3s 2200. It will result in improved performance for the same time period, or the same performance for a longer period of time.
With more volts it appears you can get away with less amperage to make the same power. Am I correct on that?
Exactly... it is called watts law.
Here is a link to an ohms law calculator but it shows watts at the bottom.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator

08-31-2016 08:19 PM
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LaDon

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Exactly that is what I worked so hard to get. Someone finally said it thank you. Richard in an above post said we got a perceived improvement in power with the 6s system on a 450. You just confirmed it is an increase in performance. That has been my whole point on all this. It had nothing to do with how much a pack has stored. It is like a gas tank it can only hold so much. My whole point was the power needed depends on Heli setup and it can't be compared to different sizes helis. If what Richard was saying was true "which to a point was true depending on how you look at it" there would be no reason for the multi cell packs. That is the bad thing about typing this stuff. Nobody can make it all come out right. My whole point on all of this is that it has to be used real world not on paper. Demands change everything.

Team Jr

08-31-2016 09:17 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

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Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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You just confirmed it is an increase in performance. That has been my whole point on all this. It had nothing to do with how much a pack has stored
The increase in performance for the same time period is because the pack does contain more stored energy.

If you ran a 3s 2200 against a 6s 1100, to get more performance, you would have a shorter flight.

EDIT... Added in
My whole point on all of this is that it has to be used real world not on paper.
Paper can give you exact real world results in this case. Electricity and power have been studied extensively and results have all been the same so there are exact formulas to figure things like what we're discussing.

"Power out" will NEVER be greater than "power in"

08-31-2016 10:48 PM
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LaDon

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Yes but paper also says an f16 fighter jet won't fly but it does. My point being no matter how much studying there is something somewhere throws a curve ball

Team Jr

09-01-2016 12:38 AM
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LaDon

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f you ran a 3s 2200 against a 6s 1100, to get more performance, you would have a shorter flight.

This would be totally true if both were run to the max. No doubt. But how do we figure out how hard the 6s or the 3s is going to have to be run? That is what the problem is with figuring. There really isn't a way. The amount of power that either uses is hard to measure because the motor will only use what it needs. There is no formula out there that can take in consideration flying style and what the power demands for flying like that it will need. You also cannot predict the load on the system either as every flight is different

The only way is by logging your particular usage and keeping track of it. That is why these type of questions are so difficult to answer as there is nobody pulling a constant say 30c out of their batteries.

Really in the end everyone is correct in their own way as everyone's demands are different

Team Jr

09-01-2016 04:24 AM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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to get more performance, you would have a shorter flight.
This is a universal truth in either configuration
This would be totally true if both were run to the max.
Not needed to run to the max.

I still haven't read through all the pages... and probably not going to do so. But I'm guessing a friend of yours or you had a 3s 450 heli and changed it to a 6s setup and now it has more power but still the same flight time. Now you're trying to explain how that has happened.

It has happened because you have added a 6s 1350 in place of your old 3s 2200 so you are carrying more stored power in the battery which will give you an increase somewhere. Weather it be performance or flight time, or possibly a little bit of both. You are basing this off of using a timre to see that you do have the same flight time and also by what your eyes are seeing that your heli is faster. or maybe it doesn't bog so it does have more pop.

Unless you have computer run autonomous flight capabilities, you cannot recreate the exact same flight so you will never NEVER have conclusive evidence that your 6s powered heli has more power. When the reality is that it will have about 23% more something because that is how much larger your new packs are compared to your old ones.

If my old 3s powered 450 was lacking power, I could add a tooth to the pinion and raise the power of the heli. ( but reduce flight time since I have added nothing to the heli same amount of power in the 3s 2200 pack )

If that isn't powerful enough, I can increase the pitch also. Which again, will increase performance but sacrifice flight time.

If I'm having troubles with the motor bogging, I can get higher C rated 3s 2200 packs that can handle higher current draws with less voltage drop, and my heli will be faster still ( only on high power requiring maneuvers but regular flying will see no gains from the higher C rated pack )

Now since I'm driving my heli so hard, I might be over heating the motor, so I can get the same Kv motor but larger so it dissipates heat better and I can now raise my HS even more since my motor is now running cooler.

The 100% truth of all this... I can make a 3s 2700mAh ( same energy capacity as a 6s 1350 ) 450 size heli fly with the same performance and flight time as your 6s 1350 heli. ( With the only possibility of your 6s being better is the fact that the higher voltage setup will be slightly more efficient, but you would only beat my 3s heli by a few seconds max. )

I don't know if this addresses all the things you have questions about, but it should answer some.

P.S.the larger motor mentioned above doesn't make more power... it simply can handle more power. I can explain this if you need me to... but not right now.

09-01-2016 06:18 AM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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The 100% truth of all this... I can make a 3s 2700mAh ( same energy capacity as a 6s 1350 ) 450 size heli fly with the same performance and flight time as your 6s 1350 heli.
Yup.

Anyway LaDon, you seem to have taken this thread into a 'which has more power topic', which it isn't, it has always been about C ratings and the fact that it doesn't matter what voltage you use in the same size heli (lets stick with 450's) you still need the same C rated pack. If we can just all agree on that then this topic can end and we can put a quite long standing myth to bed.

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 11:09 AM
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Richardmid1

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Here you go 3s vs 6s 450:

Again the slight difference in pack load and flight time is due to the 6s being 1600mah and the 3s being 3000mah but the power is the same:

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 11:49 AM
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LaDon

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So let me ask you this then Richard. Maybe you can enlighten all the speed racers out there. Why are they using 16s to go fast? It would be a lot cheaper if they used 12s or maybe 10s. They also wouldn't need the killer esc's. What would the benifit be of doing that? Also let's look at the sportmans class and the pro mod class from 2015 before they changed the rules. Pro mod class was allowed 14s and sportsman 12s. 6 to 9 mph difference. 14s being faster. Helis otherwise were the same. If more s didn't make more power how can that be? You can just kv the motor to where the rpm is the same. Tell me how that works

Team Jr

09-01-2016 01:12 PM
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Richardmid1

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Leeds, England

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The simplest answer is they don't make a high enough current ESC for what those guys are pulling so they have to go with higher voltage.

6 to 9 mph difference! WOW! You don't think that could be down to the model, setup or pilot skill?!

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 01:47 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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Another simple answer LaDon,
If one is going faster than the other ( boat, airplane, heli or cars ) with the exact same setup ( weight, aerodynamics, pilot/driver skill ) then they are using more watts. ( watts = the measure of power )

If that same faster vehicle is running faster for the same time period, then they are using packs with more watt-hours or the slower vehicles aren't using the full pack.

It is absolute math and its correct 100% of the time.

09-01-2016 02:11 PM
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LaDon

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Then that means they are wrong. Look guys I am just trying to understand how that works. Also I am tired of the pilot skill comment. Same pilot same type of Heli same everything but number of packs the Heli will be approx 8 mph faster. Why. Just show me why that is. If a 14s pack didn't give more power they wouldn't use them. Period. Sure watts no problem I understand that. Damn guys that isn't the question. Can you get more watts from 14s than 12s? I don't know for fact but it would seem you should. Does the volts make up for more power then and is that making it? Seems like nobody can answer that straight up

Team Jr

09-01-2016 02:32 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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LaDon,

WATT HOURS, WATT HOURS, WATT HOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 02:35 PM
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LaDon

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Ok I got that. Calm down Richard. Ok educate us dumba$$es a little here then in terms we can understand.

Am I correct in understanding this right?

1s pack 5000 mah compared to 6s 5000 pack. Are the watt hours different or the same. Can you put that up here with the math please

I am not being a smart a$$ here I am serious.

Team Jr

09-01-2016 03:06 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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1s pack 5000 mah compared to 6s 5000 pack. Are the watt hours different or the same. Can you put that up here with the math please
Different.
Nominal voltage x capacity
1s 5000 pack is 3.7v x 5 = 18.5 watt hours
6s 5000 pack is 22.2 x 5 = 111 watt hours

09-01-2016 03:20 PM
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LaDon

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thank you Flying for Jesus. That is what we needed. Now that I know the formula and someone else posted it now the point is proven. I will copy what you said there and add two more to it

Different.
Nominal voltage x capacity
1s 5000 pack is 3.7v x 5 = 18.5 watt hours
6s 5000 pack is 22.2 x 5 = 111 watt hours
12s5000 pack is 44.4 x 5 = 222 watt hrs
14s5000 pack is 51.8 x 5 = 259 watt hrs
16s5000 pack is 59.2 x 5 = 296 watt hrs

So there is a reason in the speed racing to have more cells. It is more power like I said. Nobody is using 2500 packs in a soeed

3s 2200 pack is 11.1 x 2.2 = 24.4 watt hrs
Now the pack ppl are using on the 6s 450s now were a 1350 pack
6s 1350 pack is 22.2 x 1.35 = 29.97 watt hrs.

Now that flying for Jesus has straightened this mess out there would be the reason the 450 has more power with a 6s system. Probably approx about 15 to 20% more. Just because your chart Richard says it don't is prolly because of how you are flying it. Which if you are not maxing the 3s system no you will not see more power. Now sure if you are using a 1100 pack no prolly not but they are using the 1350 in real life. That has been my point

Now obviously by flying for Jesus numbers he gave and figuring the 14s compared to the 12s there is a difference in watt hrs. That is why they have more power. Thank you flying for Jesus for having the patience and listening to a person when we really can't explain what we are getting at very well. You are a good man. Point proven

Team Jr

09-01-2016 05:08 PM
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LaDon

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Also that is what Ron was getting at in being able to use a little less c with the 6s just because you have a little different size pack you can use so you could use a little less c. See what I have been trying to say real world it is a little different. Really in the end everyone is right.

Team Jr

09-01-2016 05:31 PM
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