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AlignRC Thunder Power RC
Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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I guess I've been confused all along... Maybe I should have read the entire thread. but I remember an example of 6s 10,000mAh being compared to a 12s 5,000mAh

Where the 6s - 22.2 x 10 = 222 watt hours
and the 12s - 44.4 x 5 = 222 watt hours

Then you were claiming that the 12s had more power????

If we had 6 1350mAh LiPo cells and you arranged them into a 6s 1350mAh ( all in series ) pack But I arranged them into a 3s 2700 pack (2 sets of 3 in series and those 2 3s packs in parallel ) Both 29.97 watt hours, you were claimiing that your configuration had more power. but it doesn't.

If I had a pile of batteries and I then add more to the pile, certainly I now have more power.
Also that is what Ron was getting at in being able to use a little less c with the 6s just because you have a little different size pack you can use so you could use a little less c. See what I have been trying to say real world it is a little different. Really in the end everyone is right.
The bold statement is not correct...

if you want to be exact...
3s 2200 30C max output 66A
6s 1350 ( C to be determined ) would need max output 33A

33 / 1.35 you would need a 24c pack.

You can do a lower C rating not in the least bit tied to the 6s voltage... The 6s has absolutely nothing to do with the drop in C rating. it is because you have raised the capacity of the pack and C ratings are based off the capacity.

I can run a 6s 2700 mAh 12c pack.
I can use a 6s 5400mAh 6c pack
even a 6s 10,800mAh 3c pack...

ALL 6s and all max output of 33A.

09-01-2016 05:32 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Was waiting for the back pedaling to start from LaDon!

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 05:42 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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There is no back pedaling. If you would read what I wrote instead of changing everything. Just like the 6s 10000 mah. You were the one that brought that up not me. You didn't read when I said they were running a 6s 1350 pack. You changed it to 1100. Not me. My apple to apples comment was based on the helicopter size. You can't compare a 550 to a 700 As far as the speed helis go NOBODY is going down on mah size to even it they are all running 5000 packs or more. But you once again didn't read that. Look above numbers don't lie. You even said so. You even said the 450 with the 6s 1350 pack was not making mor power than the 3s. I don't have to back pedal at all. The numbers above prove that. You are changing battery size to even them sure that is true when you do that but nobody is putting in a 6s system in a 450 and chopping the battery in half. That wouldn't be even worth doing. Pay attention next time

Also since you booted me from you other topic. You quoted me as saying the opti power made it. I was quoting what that guy said. Not what I believe. Pay attention again and quit twisting things around. If you read my post in that topic above that you would see I did find a test that they say makes it but I didn't buy it or how they did it. PAY ATTENTION!!!! That was him that said it. I didn't say I believe it but did say the way he put it we until he is proven wrong have to tack his word for it. Prove him wrong then.

See Richard it is the twisting that pi$$e$ ppl of with you. If you would read and pay attention and didn't get so wound about it we can all figure this out. See with flying for Jesus he was easy to work with. He answered the question without turning things around

Yes nobody is arguing if you were maxing out the frickin packs. But that is what your numbers do is go off max. Nobody is maxing them for 3 min. Not even the great you

Team Jr

09-01-2016 06:11 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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I guess my confusion was that I thought you were saying that the 6s 450 had more power because it was 6s not because you were putting a battery in with more watt hours.

Seems like we're all on the same page now.

09-01-2016 06:22 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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3s 2200mah setup using 1760mah (80%) in 4 minutes would use 444mah per minute or 26.4Ah. 26.4A divided by 2.2Ah is 12C.

6s 1350mah setup using 1080mah (80%) in 4 minutes would use 270mah per minute or 16.2Ah. 16.2A divided by 1.35Ah is 12C.

So you see, same C rating needed. Myth busted... Again!

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 06:56 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Thinking about it it's the same C rating for a 4 minute flight no matter what the setup. We could actually have a chart of flight times and what the C rating load is and say maybe go 50% above and that would be a safe C rated pack to choose? Food for thought.

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 07:20 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

My Posts: All  Forum  Topic

I'm gonna add a bit here just because I have to...
3s 2200mah setup using 1760mah (80%) in 4 minutes would use 444mah per minute or 26.4Ah. 26.4A divided by 2.2Ah is 12C.
6s 1350mah setup using 1080mah (80%) in 4 minutes would use 270mah per minute or 16.2Ah. 16.2A divided by 1.35Ah is 12C.
So you see, same C rating needed. Myth busted... Again!
This is true.

I'll expand it for you.

For simplicity, lets get rid of the 80% thing because it will add unnecessary calculations to prove a point.

UNIVERSAL TRUTH HERE

using 100% of the battery...
EVERY 60c battery can be fully discharged in 1 minute
EVERY 30c battery can be fully discharged in 2 minutes
EVERY 15c battery can be fully discharged in 4 minutes
EVERY 10c battery can be fully discharged in 6 minutes
EVERY 6c battery can be fully discharged in 10 minutes
EVERY 1c battery can be fully discharged in 60 minutes

No matter what cell count or capacity.

So, to bust you just a bit here. your basing the C rating on flight time.
Any heli, Any size, Any pack will all need the same C rating to fly 4 minutes.

I guess this is where LaDon was talking about maxing out the pack for the entire flight. ( Once again, I should have read the entire thread ) But since a heli has spikes of current throughout the flight, you cannot get a 12c pack and successfully fly it unless it is a hover. Which would be maxing out the pack the entire flight.

09-01-2016 07:29 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Yess perfect! Although all batteries also have a burst C rating which is usually double the continuous C rating for around 10 seconds. They would also have a much higher C rating for 5 seconds or 1 second etc.

Soooo the first reply to the OP's question should have been "what's your usual flight time?" then this whole topic could have been 10 pages shorter! Lol.

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-01-2016 07:51 PM
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Flyin for Jesus

Senior Heliman

Dana Point, Ca. 92629

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Assuming C ratings printed on the labels are accurate... you would have to pick your C rating based on the max amps of your ESC log during the flight.

But the grey area here is that say you have inadequate packs and draw a 100A peak. you then pick out some new packs with an adequate C rating but now the spike is 120A... this is because you have better packs and the voltage didn't drop as low as your inadequate packs.

The way I mentioned about the GOV and throttle out... if you can fly hard as you can and you never hit 100% throttle out, your packs are good enough. but then again, maybe you never hit 100% throttle because you are overgeared and you have too much headroom above your target HS or even GOV gain too low.

With new packs, I never have a problem as I always buy quality packs that have a history ( history of my experience ) of being more than enough.

When I have old packs and think they are giving me a fight, I view ESC logs and look at how much the voltage sags under hard moves.

Is there a definitive way to do this... I wish there was. but simply there is not.

09-01-2016 08:13 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Exactly right. That is what I have been trying to say. Like I said maybe I didn't put it in the right way and that would be my fault. You Richard was going off max. Off max you are correct. I was trying to use real world of what ppl were doing and the fact you cannot max a battery for that long in a Heli. Unless of course it is way to small to begin with. Flying for Jesus understood me right away and we got this hammered out pretty easy then. I ain't here to try and pi$$ anyone off here but we have to be real and figure out how this works per application. Everyone has different needs

Really to be honest that is why questions like this one are almost worthless and usually start a big fight

Team Jr

09-01-2016 08:15 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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That is like the other thread Richard. You put me on ignore because you won't read what I really said. I will list it out on my stance

As far as me saying opti power c rating made 50c. First I am not saying it did. The guy in the video said he tests opti power packs. He also said in the video the batteries do not get the c rating unless it passes his test. Those are the facts with the last comment being at approx 45sec left in the video. Now I know he didn't test a 50c battery. That we established. But if he said that one would have to assume he tested them too. Now that in no way shape or form means I believe it made it unless I seen a video but you have to give him the benifit of the doubt. He has a lot better test equipment than you or me. I am like you tho I would like to see a video on it for the proof. There is nothing wrong in what I am saying on that

Otherwise I have said that the higher c rated packs do come down cooler. That is fact also and also said by others. It also is a very easy test with a temp gun to prove.

Those are the two thing I have said. As far as the one Qoute about them making it all that is about is because he said so. I didn't say it made it I am just saying you would have to assume it did. Assume is not a fact

You ignored me on that thread and argued with ppl instead of thinking about what was being said. That is why it got so far out of hand. I am sorry if I didn't put it all in the exact right way but it is tough on here. Calm down a little tho and read and make sure you understand what we mean. If you are not sure then ask

Team Jr

09-01-2016 08:32 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Peak current spikes shown in ESC logs are usually around 1-2 seconds long, not long enough to have much effect on the pack. Multiple high current spikes throughout a 3D flight will simply show as a reduced flight time so going by flight time gives an all round average of current draw. A 20C pack has a burst rating of 30-40C for 10-15 seconds, that is not to say it will simply fail if the current demand exceeds 40C for a short peak. You can think of the packs continuous C rating as the average continuous current capability just as flight time shows the average current draw of the entire flight.

I'm not saying if your flights are usually 4 minutes you can get away with a 15C pack, that would put the pack on the limit and it wouldn't last long at all, that is why I suggested as a guide line going 50% above so for a 4 minute flight you would be fine with a 22.5C pack (if there was such a thing). Maybe 50% above then go to the nearest 5C so you would pick a 25C pack in this case?

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-02-2016 10:30 AM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Ok now that Richard has ignored me maybe we can get some light shed on this whole mess without him going off.

First I believe he is correct in saying c ratings don't make it on the packs. Especially the high ones. My reasoning may be a little different here tho and maybe someone can prove this one wrong. I don't believe the wires are large enough to carry that kind of power for the full discharge cycle. I am a welder. If I weld at 22 volts and say that is 250amps approx. they don't have that part on the machines anymore but you get my point we have a 2/0 cable running it. Yeah prolly overkill but an 8 gauge wire on the battery? Can handle a peak but wow that is asking a lot on a constant high discharge
Take the 65c 5000 pulse packs for instance. That would be discharging at 325 amps. Quite a high draw for a small wire. Bursts sure but constant? I don't know

Next his c rating sure will be correct on getting away with a 25 c pack. Nobody has argued that either. But where it does play into is how hard those packs are used. Gaurentee you that a 25 c pack flown hard 3D like Kyle Stacy, Duncan, Nick Maxwell and Ben Storik and ect flies you are gonna stress this packs bad. Say you have a car and top speed is 150mph and the motor is redlined. How many miles will you get out of it before the motor is shot. Yeah that has been my point along with Flying for Jesus.

I have a friend that like Richard swears by doing the same thing and using a low c turnigy packs. He babies these packs and storage charges the religously. If he charges them and don't fly them in an hour he will pull it back down to storage. Then charge it an hour later and fly it. He also has backed his Heli down after popping a set of batteries on a hard climb out. He was luck and didn't burn his Heli up

He also talked another friend into using them. After one hard pull poof batteries burst and when that was done burning there was nothing left that could be used. It was just a campfire. Nope not for me

I have tried all these different senarios. I have used the cheap turnigy packs to no good results. Most made it 10 flights either before they wouldn't fit in the Heli or they did burn one. Sure if you are gonna just go out hover around at a lower headspeed you will be fine. If you don't push them hard you will be fine. One fact that cannot be prove wrong is good quality packs are worth it and even if the higher c rated packs don't make the c rating they run cooler and won't puff so easy. Heat kills period. Batteries cannot take that for very long. In the end he is not saving you money. I have spent more money on cheap packs than I care to imagine. In the end it is not worth it

If you don't take my word for it at least take Flying for Jesus word then. He has spoken wisely and not to just prove a worthless point. Most of this stuff is from experience like he said. We have been through it

Team Jr

09-02-2016 01:31 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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Ok now that Richard has ignored me maybe we can get some light shed on this whole mess without him going off.
The light is fully shed on this thanks to me and Flyin for Jesus! It's only a mess in YOUR head!

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-02-2016 02:31 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Thought you ignored me. The light ain't shed I still don't agree with buying cheap low c batteries. See like normal you read into what you want. Higher c packs are still better and the quality is still better. You can't read. I NEVER said they make it. Jeez you like to change stuff. All I did was Qoute what that guy SAID in YOUR video. With him saying that one has to ASSUME he has tested the 50c. YOU GET THAT? ASSUME does NOT mean I believe it. Pay attention Richard. I know it is tough but at least try. It would make this all easier

What you need still depends on flying style and what you want to get out of this hobby. Buy cheap crap get poor results. If you are happy with that it is fine. If you are not happy with it then get better. It is that easy. You are making it tough

Team Jr

09-02-2016 03:01 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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I never disagreed that a higher C rated pack is better!

Anyway I think im going to start selling Turnigy 20C's with metal plates in and call them 50C and charge 3 times the price! Oh no wait, nearly every other Li-po brand has beaten me too it!

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-02-2016 03:14 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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oh so now we are down to 20c. See what I mean you can't even keep track of your own rhetoric Before nobody made anything over 30c. You you are saying 20c. you can't even keep your own crap straight

Do me a favor and put me back on ignore.

Team Jr

09-02-2016 03:28 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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What are you talking about?! Are you drunk?!

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-02-2016 03:35 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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No now you are gonna make 20c batteries 30c. Why stop there. You have already said the 30c makes it so why would you jump in there? If you are wanting to make good money make them 90c. Throw out some fantastic IR numbers that you just dream up and make a mint. With your hi tech bicycle tester thing you should be able to dream something up showing they make it. The money Richard the money you could make by ripping ppl off would be tremendous. Just like all the rest of the companies do. If you don't believe me just look in the mirror and ask that guy. He will tell you

Team Jr

09-02-2016 03:47 PM
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Richardmid1

rrProfessor

Leeds, England

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PM me if you have a personal issue with me which you seem to have.

60% of the time, it works every time!

09-02-2016 03:51 PM
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