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Thunder Power RC ProModeler
NIKOS PAPISTAS

Senior Heliman

KOZANI-GREECE

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Today we change the scratch body with new one from last land crash (see the first post above) and we fly again....but he make again the vibration when the motor stop and heli start to dance in skid....my friend theodoros run to stop from the head before he goes upside down and in very last time he stop the head from spinning but he cut his finger (thanks god not very much).Im going to crazy with that....we afraid to land and to stop the motor...I tight the blade hard but this is problem with vibration.He need to stop with auto mode and the stick in center but again we have the mind in vibration.I don't know the solution about that....
Here in pic with Ioannis Antoniadis (left) from world championship with the color of Greece.

SSt-Eagle Freya EX WC SSZ-V-FREYA X-SPEC-SCEADU EX-SDX DOMINIC-T-rex 500 esp

08-25-2016 11:54 PM
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Bugcatcher

Senior Heliman

Perth, Australia

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Hi Nikos, the problem you are experiencing has nothing to do with the CGY750 setup.

If I have some time I can send you some pics of my servo swash setup and CGY750 settings but these will not help with the vibration.

I am having the same issue with both my Eagles but problem seems to be much worse with my Eagle with the Black Shark fuse fitted. On my pod & boom 'Eagle A', I can hover at 1450HS no problem but can have a vibration like yours if there is more wind or if the heli if facing a certain direction of the wind.

With my Eagle fitted with the Black Shark 'Eagle B', I have to increase the headspeed to 1550HS to stop the vibration or oscillation. I have tried the same heli without the fuse and behaves same as my 'Eagle A'.

I will be doing more testing this week and post if I find a solution.

What I would suggest is take the mechanics out of the Black Shark fuse and try a test hover again and see if it has the same problem.

09-10-2016 05:52 PM
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NIKOS PAPISTAS

Senior Heliman

KOZANI-GREECE

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Hi Bugcatcher...
My problem is not in flight.
The vibration that I have it's only in the time that I close the throttle after landing and before stop the head.
In flight the heli it's perfect without any issues or vibration and that in any rpm.
I don't have any problem with setup in 750.
I sold the problem with tight a lot the blade in blade grip and when I land and before stop the motor i turn in hold mode with the stick in center I have zero degrees so the heli he don't make nothing.

SSt-Eagle Freya EX WC SSZ-V-FREYA X-SPEC-SCEADU EX-SDX DOMINIC-T-rex 500 esp

09-10-2016 10:25 PM
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Bugcatcher

Senior Heliman

Perth, Australia

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No problem, the way you were describing the issue. I thought it might have been similar to one I am having now.

09-11-2016 03:27 AM
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Bugcatcher

Senior Heliman

Perth, Australia

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Hi Nikos,

Attached below are a couple of photo's of my setup.

Servo wheels are at 10.5mm to centre or 21mm overall. Using QuickUK 28mm servo wheels.

Outer hole on blade grip and inner hole on swash plate. Due to the change in blade grip arm geometry, it will seem weird and you will get different throws of cyclic on the left and right sides of the swash. So you will NOT get the same deg of throw on the same blade for a left/right swash move. To check correctly you need to check left blade when swash moves left and then check right blade when the swash moves right as they are not linear in both directions.

CGY750 settings I have:
Pit 50% for 13.5deg pitch
SWS 70% for 8-8.5deg cyclic aileron

I could move the ball to the outer position on the swash and get more cyclic and reduce the SWS % setting but due to the geometry it also increases the difference or range of cyclic difference from one side to the other. Pitch is a little high at 13.5 deg but didn't really want to drop below 50% as recommended on the CGY750.

I have looked into the head geometry alot and even draw the geometry up in CAD to investigate it more and may write up a new post going into it in more detail for those interested.

Lastly, just a question or 2 for you Nikos, is your Eagle with the Blackshark body vibration and wobble free at 1450HS in hover?
If so, are you using the standard dampers and did you use the locking grub screw on the spindle through the top of the head?
Did you change anything on the head from factory or just bolt it on?

09-13-2016 05:11 AM
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NIKOS PAPISTAS

Senior Heliman

KOZANI-GREECE

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Hi bug...
The head it's factory.I don't change anything.The only thing that I change is the hole in swash from inner to outer like he suggested the Dr.Ben.
I have one issue with the servo horn that I use.....it's a little bit smaller but I change soon with bigger.
I don't have any issue with vibration in 1450. Basically I don't have nothing in all of rpm range.I test it and low 1410 rpm....nothing at all.
The only issues that I have it's only when close the throttle stick and stop the motor and wait to stop the head.I use 120 hv kontronik jive into one of the two eagle that I have and I thing that maybe one piece of the problem is that because the 120 have quick stop and also and quick start.In second eagle I have a kosmik 200hv.I test it in a few days (I'm waiting for new blackshark body) and I write the difference.
Pm nice color your blackshark.

SSt-Eagle Freya EX WC SSZ-V-FREYA X-SPEC-SCEADU EX-SDX DOMINIC-T-rex 500 esp

09-13-2016 01:25 PM
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Bugcatcher

Senior Heliman

Perth, Australia

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Hi Nikos, just re-reading through all yours posts I think your problem definately was having SWS rate way too high.

10.5 deg cyclic is way too much than you need. As I mentioned before I run about 8 deg on cyclic and my eagle rolls and flips quite fast. I have the CGY750 roll rate at 280 deg/sec but plan to reduce that a little more down to maybe 250-260 deg/sec.

Just remember that SWS rate % should only be adjusted if the heli is not reaching the desired rate. If you want the heli to roll at 300deg/sec but after you have a flight and look at the CGY750 screen and tells you it only reached 250deg/sec then you need to increase the SWS rate % more as it needs more cyclic.

If the roll rate is 300 deg/sec, the heli may actually only need 6 deg of cyclic to achieve that so having 10.5 deg cyclic set on the CGY750 is only a waste.

I think your heli became unstable because SWS rate was set way too high. Bring it way down to give you 8deg cyclic, fly it see how it feels.

Thanks for the other info as well. Just typing this has actually giving me another idea to try. Also remember that you now have 2 settings available for PIT & SWS rate % via the C1/C2 selectable.

09-13-2016 02:04 PM
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Bugcatcher

Senior Heliman

Perth, Australia

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Also, I don't think the ESC would have anything to do with the vibration on startup unless it spins up very fast. So fast that the heli spins around because there is no tail authority.

Spool down should not do anything as the head is just spinning on the one way bearing and blades should remain in balance unless the are very very loose.

09-13-2016 02:20 PM
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NIKOS PAPISTAS

Senior Heliman

KOZANI-GREECE

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Hi.
The esc have different between two.
The kosmik have very smooth startup like nitro helis with clutch.Also have and more smooth stop.
The jive 120 have different starting.....more aggressive.
The 10.5 deg that you said.....maybe you have right.Maybe it's more.I change down to 9 deg and I test it to see how it feel.
What ver. Use in 750?I run 2.0

SSt-Eagle Freya EX WC SSZ-V-FREYA X-SPEC-SCEADU EX-SDX DOMINIC-T-rex 500 esp

09-13-2016 11:33 PM
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Perth, Australia

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i'm using V2 in 3D mode. From the information I have read on the forums, F3C mode is the old 1.41 and 3D is the new V2 software. V2 seems pretty good though I can't compare as I haven't really flown F3C with V1.41 much. especially in hovers.

Funny thing is I found an error in my setup last night that makes 10.5 deg seem way over the top. I originally had mine as PIT rate 50% & SWS rate 70% but did not use C1/C2 straight away, only C1 for all flight conditions. Then later I split up C1 for hover and C2 for aero's and adjusted a couple of settings in C1 for hover in flight tuning menu. Yesterday I realized that C2 was still set at the default SWS rate 50% which would have given me about 6% cyclic rate but the heli still flys great even with a cyclic rate that low so got me thinking about how much SWS rate % is actually needed for F3C.

09-14-2016 03:12 AM
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NIKOS PAPISTAS

Senior Heliman

KOZANI-GREECE

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I dont thing so that in f3c mode use the ver1.41 and the 3d use ver.2.0.If youhave make the update in vr2.0 the amplifier use the ver.2 in all mode-condition.
I put cyclic in all my fbl heli in 9 deg or more....never less from 9 deg.
Also i use one mode for hovering and one for idleup and one for autorotation.I dont use the banks c1-c2.All of the mode change from switch condition.

SSt-Eagle Freya EX WC SSZ-V-FREYA X-SPEC-SCEADU EX-SDX DOMINIC-T-rex 500 esp

09-14-2016 09:28 AM
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Perth, Australia

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I did read somewhere, it might have come from either Dr. Ben or Nick Maxwell, where apart from additional C1/C2 features, F3C mode is essentially the older 1.4 where as 3D is actually V2.

Maybe either of them could confirm this if they see this message. I will also ask a Futaba contact myself to find out either way. From what i'm told, this was done for the Japanese pilots so they could directly compare the 2 softwares. There are essentially 2 algorithms that are chosen by the F3C/3d modes but uses alot of common settings. It will likely be that F3C mode will disappear in the next update.

Definately check out C1/C2 functions in the CGY750. The only changes available in the Tx you can make are 'gains' and 'gov RPM' where as C1/C2 now offer extra tuning between hover and FFF or aero's.

09-14-2016 01:45 PM
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NIKOS PAPISTAS

Senior Heliman

KOZANI-GREECE

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Tell me something.
How much gain have in hover mode?

SSt-Eagle Freya EX WC SSZ-V-FREYA X-SPEC-SCEADU EX-SDX DOMINIC-T-rex 500 esp

09-14-2016 04:33 PM
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Perth, Australia

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I have base gain raised to 150% as recommended for flying F3C and set as 85% in the radio which comes out at about 127% on the CGY750

Aero's I have it set at 50% in radio or 75% on the CGY750.

I'm actually switching over to Vbar on the Eagle that is giving me trouble with the wobble in hover today just to test whether it's a mechanical issue or the flybarless unit so I can concentrate my efforts in one direction.

Tested the vibrations yesterday and the Eagle with Blackshark fuse actually has less vibration levels than the one that is flying well so that left me scratching my head as to why it has this problem. And yes it had the same problem with base gain set at 100% for a setting anywhere from 60% to 95% overall so doesn't seem to be a gain issue.

09-16-2016 04:26 AM
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Dr.Ben

rrMaster

Richmond, VA, USA

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You can easily isolate a gyro induced oscillation from a "mast bump" by dropping head gain to little or nothing and seeing if the problem persists. Marked changes in head gain with little effect on the problem point to a problem other than a gyro.

REMEMBER: Increased base gain and high head gain and tweaked heading hold gain will not work for hover unless swash rate is kept low. 35-40% is a good starting point.

Ben Minor

Team Synergy Team Futaba Team Kontronik USA
Progressive RC

09-17-2016 03:51 AM
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Perth, Australia

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This probably should be in a separate thread but I actually had a bit of a breakthrough last couple of days. Tried a vbar and straight throttle curves (no gov) on it and the problem was not there so it's definitely in somewhere in the CGY750.

Secondly, this problem has been around even with the flybarred head so I then re-thought the whole problem and only thing common is the governor via the GY701 setup before. Everything is the same. Although you can't hear it, maybe the governor interaction is causing chain reaction. The centre of the wobble seems to be around the boom as it's axis in an aileron direction.

I have 2 magnets on the main gear via the CGY750 magnet pickup and had a ratio of 2 with it set to 'quick' response having a default gain of 60%. This is on a YGE160. Started to play with governor gains last night and it did make differences. It now hovers smooth at 1450HS but then wobbles at 1600HS where it was smooth before. Just weird. Playing with a few more settings today and may try 'Rev.Lmt' work mode as I have seen been suggested by yourself in other threads.

Just weird how a governor can effect the head like it is. Problem always seemed to point towards a mechanical issue/balance or dampening problem.

Will be trying the sws rates and gains as well today as suggested.

09-17-2016 04:26 AM
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NIKOS PAPISTAS

Senior Heliman

KOZANI-GREECE

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Today I finished and the second eagle 3 wc and I make the first flight.The heli it's amazing....enjoy the pics.The twins it's ready.
Thanks Dr Ben for your help in setup.

SSt-Eagle Freya EX WC SSZ-V-FREYA X-SPEC-SCEADU EX-SDX DOMINIC-T-rex 500 esp

10-23-2016 07:15 PM
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