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icanfly

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ontario

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ran into a dangerous situation with a heli that kept getting either a static hit to the rx or a vibe overload on the gyro, possibly a confused signal from a servo. Needless to say I did not take the time to check the rx sat on my little 300 when it was in a nose in nose to the ground attitude and cut out 3 feet above some raspberry bushes. It went in and chopped up the bushes while dinging a pole used to hold the bushes back from the grassy lawn thus damaging many parts (two servo gears, four blades, main gear).

Here's where things got interesting with the potential for a flyaway had it been level. Just a few days ago I checked for failsafe modes and nothing but a little positive pitch became evident, no motor, nothing else unusual. While the heli had begun to chop the raspberry bushes I had flicked throttle hold and braced for the damage, however after it came to a rest on the ground in the raspberry patch to my dismay the motor kicked back in. I hear it whining from eating a few main gear teeth in the process. Call it a safe guard that two teeth were already gone from a dumb mistake heating the pinion to adjust it with the main gear engaged(it was originally binding, the slant align 450 ones and burned a few teeth off a perfectly new gear when the pinion needed some heat to make it move on the motor shaft)

darn, isn't it ironic, and after last night of destroying one servo pc board trying to solder longer servo wires, and the day before and the one before that of wrecking new blades and straightening out feathering and tail shafts, loosing a tail blade, all after it goes in from a shut down due to either vibes or a bad servo perhaps (lost one on the heli completely yesterday)

So then, what on earth after safe mode has been verified to keep the motor off would have caused it to turn on after a reset and with throttle hold? I hit throttle hold while the heli had been shut off in flight, goes into the bushes and is down, motor came back on regardless (pinion finding the two missing main gear teeth and stopping the rotor there while motor still spinning noisily.

and this heli has never suffered static hits before so I suspect a failing servo, one swash died yesterday, the kst 215s took some abuse over last year and now the almost dozen mishaps lately that almost all ended up in resets or tip overs due to reset on the ground. The reset twitch comes in a minute into operation of full rotor speed every time. I'll have to wire a ground to the tail box from now on even when the chassis is plastic, somethings not right.

This heli came out of a near year long hiatus because I have a 450 to fly regularly, thought I would bring it back out to play again because it fits in the smallish backyard where I usually play with my smaller helis and the little 300 is fun and not as much a worry about getting in close to things.

How is it the heli ignored the tx commands after resetting? Or what commanded it to turn the esc throttle full? That is unacceptable.

08-10-2016 12:14 AM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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What radio system?

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 01:16 PM
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icanfly

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ontario

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dx7 dsm2, not the problem as I have discovered. The heli has 4 kst215hv servos and a Castle Talon 35 esc. Oddly the heli has never heated the motor up as much as lately and probably due to the earlier main gear binding (somehow overlooked when the gear was exchanged for a new one last winter or even last year) as well as hot weather.

I'm over on hf right now looking for info on motors for a 380, and ended up reading about power failures of hv servos and Castle esc's, all circumvented by a 10amp outboard bec or another manufacturer's esc like HW etc. Since the weather is hot and the internal bec in the CC esc may be unable to withstand surge pulls from all cyclic hv servos due to higher amp draw when hot then it would make sense in that regard the weakest link being the CC Talon bec.

One thing I did not mention earlier was that the neighbors sprinkler was on and dousing the Raspberry bushes where the heli landed with water, also that the rx would have been obscured by thick Rhubarb leaves situated between the heli and myself making it possible to receive a signal from someone's home lan device (being that they have a lan network that used to ask me if I wanted to get on some years ago).

The only options are to exchange the esc for one with a hv capable non "brown out" bec, add an outboard bec, or step down to regular voltage servos, this heli is not a 3d monster by any stretch. It used to have a 10amp CC bec for awhile last summer until fall came and I took it off.

The restart may have been due to dsm2 connectivity or actually lack of and the higher volume 2.4 signals locally, figure every home nearby have at least two 2.4 signals active and whatever cell and network devices are on. Trust me, I have to move away from the wireless hydro and water meter signals to connect the heli to the TX otherwise it takes awhile like a good minute before the rx light comes on.

This knowledge is cold comfort to the amount of microwave activity we are subjected to with all the 2.4 home based signal generators active 24/7.

08-11-2016 03:34 PM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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Why not just use a small 2s lipo?

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 08:50 PM
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icanfly

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ontario

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if a Castle Creation esc failed in the "on" position it might explain the non commanded restart, and the original crash due to reset or non throttle command care of a "brown out", Castle Creations I think I may be taking my business elsewhere. Consider if your esc's are premium priced, AND you have to buy an outboard bec to bypass one's you include in the original bec but which are poorly engineered for rc helis of late well maybe all that fancy packaging helps or your customer service might delay the wake up, good luck.

Here's the topic of the G380 brown out problem and BK hv servos, http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=677743
for rc helis and hv servos Castle your inboard bec's can't be trusted. I don't want another gadget on my heli and don't want the weight or expense of and outboard bec either. Get with the times man all esc's for 300 and up size helis with micro hv servos should be 10amp 8v. I bought your shyt to feel happy about a good product NOT to be the ass end of teaching you your falling behind here.

I don't recommend Castle Creations anymore and would send anyone looking for an esc to HobbyWing or YEP first. Ahh of course the software for logging is in the price, either a more powerful bec or logging sure, AT THE RISK TO MANY THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS OF HELIS FIRST just to find out the inboard bec's are shyt for hv?

I'm certainly not the only one to feel the "burn", and was extremely fortunate in my case, Castle, YOU SUCK, big time now and your too expensive to fix your weak spots with more product when other esc companies are getting on the ball on this.. you don't know the serious risk, financial and physical damage, and aggravation you've caused, NOT COOL.

Some people like all the extra gadgets, not helis, less is more for obvious reasons.

Tell me hv capable esc's with hv capable bec's are to be released in a months time, called the Arc Welding series or something catchy like the Lightning Strike series, hey, that's in your logo anyway, at less than the price of two separate units and not much more than what you already include regarding all in one esc/bec's, CC, .

If I understand some companies advertise peak output, not rms, so there's little protection if one were to exceed the rating as peak, leaves no headroom for error or in this case PROGRESS from 6v to 8v servos hungry for amps (and a little more headroom for heat losses please).

Average hv micro servo rating of 1.7 amps peak (a bit over half that rms) x4 your already over 5.5 amps with absolutely NO room for more due to heat = system BROWNOUT = CRASH = lost time and money on expensive heli repairs after the heli smacks the earth without tx/rx connection, NOT COOL. And what about vibes and a dieing servo where the amp usage rises? no headroom for error or stress.

I'm probably nit picking but damn, my helis cost large, are "ONE OF A KIND" and I just fixed the thing from the last brown out the day before, and the day before, and the day before, damn CC inboard bec, damn you with hv servos, you don't work. Sure glad I discovered this before flying my "one off" 6s 380 sized Align/Blade 450x based original heli with CC IceLite 50.

Thank you,,,,,, sure.

08-13-2016 10:47 AM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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It's your money, spend it how you want.

I bought my g500 used of a member here. It had a cc Talon 90. Because of the extensive research I did on Goblin 500s I was nervous to use this esc, there were many fires that people blamed on the Talon 90.

But here's the trick, people for the most part don't tell anyone when a product works OK, or it works good, or pretty good. Even a product that is amazing won't have a whole bunch of posts or videos about it.

But when someone has a problem with a product, that's when they go crazy.

Thousands of g500s have gone flying with the Talon 90 with no problems. But the dozen or so that had fires posted about it and made videos. That's actually an insignificant percent.

I went ahead and bought a Goblin. Because I concluded that the most likely scenario was that the battery tray was inserted wrong causing the motor pinion to rub a hole in the battery. A couple of people even admitted this after initially blaming the Talon.

If you had to go to a whole other forum to find an example of what you believe went wrong, then how likely is it really?

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-13-2016 04:07 PM
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icanfly

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ontario

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I'm certain nothing would have happened if the servos were the 6v variety, and another thing, they state the 10amp bec can be adjusted for 7v through a programming patch cord they supply after your initial purchase, CC just include one in the original packaging because people no want to wait a week or two for the additional goodie required to make the bec go.

It's only the unsuitable low v bec that could have caused the brownouts, and maybe the esc will have to be double checked for every possible scenario.

Everything 380 and up seems best with an outboard bec anyway, I suppose I was asking the Talon 35 bec to have some overhead amps especially in the case of operation with a dieing servo I did not have knowledge of regardless of being on a slightly smaller heli equipped with identical cyclic servos and tail servo. The brownout occurred exactly immediately at a 1 to 2 sec point of a hard cyclic pitch input each time.

BTW, when I had on a HW Platinum 40amp esc with regular voltage bec there's no problem of any kind running hv servos.

I should say when the heli had a bent feathering shaft I tried to hover it and got the servo glitch/system brownout on the ground, the restart is what really troubles me.

I blame myself for not more thoroughly investigating all the possible shortcomings of the CC inboard becs, now I know.

08-13-2016 06:22 PM
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heliraptor10

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kokomo, in-US

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My Talon 90s on board bec is handling 4 hv servos at 8v.
That's in 90 degree weather.

Of course it's rated 20amp peak...

The only brown outs I've suffered were on a raptor e550 with an external dimensions engineering bec.
But I'm pretty sure that was static discharge...

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-13-2016 07:16 PM
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icanfly

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ontario

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yeah, this one's more my fault in hot weather. Upon examining the location and prep to exchange to the hw esc I discover the lack of airflow the esc would have gotten and it's proximity to a hot motor, and the weather was in the 90's last week. I think the hot motor was a major factor in heating the esc a little more than it would have normally. They rate esc values based on a 5mph wind and where mine was mounted it would have gotten only the motor airflow, a very hot one at that.

No way would I be the first to overheat and brown out an esc tucked behind a canopy. I also noticed the esc lagging in power with some lipos I used during the past several days of the helis flight experiences.

Yes it's good to learn of these things with small helis in prep for the big ones with much higher costs due to failures of this nature.

Strangely, we just had a t-storm an hour ago and things are down to the 80's temp wise now. I was outside most of the time and when I came in I picked up my 450 by the boom which was noticeably hot to the touch. Surprised it was as hot I went over to another heli and did the same thing, the aluminum being a good conductor of heat and all.

08-13-2016 08:19 PM
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Solmanbandit

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Glendale, AZ

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I live in Phoenix with much hotter weather, I used to pack my esc on my 450 pro inside the frame next to the motor and never had an issue. I was using the ice lite 50 on mine though. It is possible, but may be from another issue. The binding issue may have increased the load and caused more problems. I can see that happening. Using DSM2 can increase the possibilities of issues as well.

Trex 450 Pro-AR7200BX / Trex 500 ESP - Beastx / Trex 600E - Ikon

08-14-2016 02:23 AM
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icanfly

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ontario

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and binding the motor would have run up amperage on the esc side to the max peak rating leaving less for the bec, the Talon bec rated at 7amps max. You could say the numbers put me in a false sense of security but left no headroom for the problems described. The CC edge lite 50 more suited to a 450 or similar loaded heli (my 300 consists of 450 parts and a shortened tail and blades, everything else is 450 based), you could say it found it's limits with the Talon 35.

A dieing servo, too much cyclic load due to vibes, hot weather, no air circulation, loaded motor, all amp suckers would have maxed out the Talon 35 simple as that, when they say peak it means for half a second, not near continuous.

I'm not giving up on CC completely, the initialization tone is "cute", have a laugh at that one would ya. Hey CC why don't you just advertise RMS instead of peak and not put customers into a false sense of security with an esc labeled with peak output, not the average power delivery the esc can safely manage without problems, huh? safely, for safety's sake, HUH.

08-14-2016 03:09 AM
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icanfly

Elite Veteran

ontario

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Took the CC esc off last night and put a HW Pentium 40amp, discovered the pinion slipped again and became bound with the main gear. Surely that would have increased the amount of load on the esc right there.

Now if one were to look at rms rated esc's the Talon 35 would be a 25amp continuous, an Edge lite 50 more like a 35amp (they advertise 40amp continuous), a 120hv more like a 90amp and so on. Roughly two thirds of the CC now labeled amps would be continuous load. This is what happens when you have different manufacturers esc's at hand, when one manufacturer makes an esc labeled with continuous load and another with peak numbers.

I wouldn't say it's CC that's to blame, the heli in it's present day less than perfect condition pushed the limits of the esc, then ugly things started to happen, electronic ugliness in a Domino like effect. Dependent upon radio control that is nothing to take lightly, seriously.

The helis electronic control now is very ugly enough it won't start and run without tripping the gyro reset and forcing me to go through every component again checking all the settings, checking for an anomaly.

------------------------------------------------------------------

edit: Just got in back from successfully flying the heli without glitching, with a little tail vibe, discovered the tail boom was not perfectly aligned and had been bent to one side at the chassis tail block thus allowing the belt to rub on the inside there (subtle but negatively effective to a bad degree). So looks like static was to blame, besides I had a chance to run up the Talon 35 outside of the heli and watched the alert light come on several seconds after running a 20/25 type motor suited for 450's. My HW Platinum didn't work so I threw on a cheap Detrum I had around and dealt with the inability to program it with super soft start. I went into the throttle curve and ramped it slowly up 10% at 1/4 then 50% at .5 throttle etc.

After all was done a tail buzz did not go away even after changing the tail shaft and checking the hub (which is not perfectly straight thanks to the crashes). I flew the heli in idle up mode 1 and played with it observing how little rpm it needed to sustain aloft then throttling up to hover pitch again. The tail shunted sideways on harder pitch ups but took little effort to catch up and hold the tail at low rpm, a pleasant surprise all things considered.

No, Castle Creations was NOT the cause of bad heli behavior, only a contributing factor due to my overzealous attitude toward electronics and a not so perfect heli full of very small issues compounding to result in repeated total failure. Pretty expensive oversight not to see the boom was not straight at the tail block, costing 6 sets of blades, 4 main and 2 tail, a main gear, bent shafts, ego. What I did discover is why it's better to stay away from small helis, one small detail out of place and the thing becomes a monster, one crash and it's never perfect without replacing every thing with fresh and new parts, fun to fly though you have to inspect it with a fine tooth comb after a crash.

08-14-2016 12:54 PM
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helifanatix

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Fountain Valley, CA

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First .. Why would you need to run Higher Voltage for a micro Heli(anything more than 5.6v).
- HIgher Voltage puts a bigger load on the BEC
- would you really want to put a 2S on a small Heli?
- Do you need to make a twitchy Heli even more twitchy?

The BEC itself is more stable @ lower voltages
- The higher the user voltage (let's say ... 6.0v)
- Pulls more current & puts bigger load on BEC
- any internal BEC can handle micro & true mini servos as long as the voltage is 5.6v or less

Could also be the KST
- emitting higher EMF feedback causing BEC to brownout?
- also, Had some KST mirco's became faulty from shorting from within
- had to take it apart and insulate it internally with shoe gloo

If you are worried about static hit, put some silicone lubricant to neutralize the risk of static build. Humidity will affect ESD hits but proper setup can neutralize static hits

- Scott

08-14-2016 04:16 PM
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icanfly

Elite Veteran

ontario

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Static, due to a belt rubbing the inside of the boom. A result of a boom bent just the amount needed for lack of clearance inside and a boom looking mostly straight except at the tail block specifically. Nothing I could have done except bending the boom back which I did, aluminum, would have done anything.

This is what happens when you leave a heli for a long time, small but very significant oversight, hard to detect unless looking for it exactly, all the other problems come from a crash or two more after the fact.

I know the kst hv servos are overkill, happens to be the only digital servos available at the time it was built, downgrading to regular voltage 115's not a problem.

Taught me to pay attention to a few important things from now on.

08-14-2016 04:54 PM
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wc_wickedclown

rrProfessor

long beach calif

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Watch at YouTube

buy a cc bec pro and use a 2s lipo and run dsmx

Insha Allah

08-15-2016 11:02 AM
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icanfly

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ontario

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well, spent a couple of hours fixing every damaged part and a suspect servo which was binding a little inside and I don't know why, shortened 325's which have not been broken in a half dozen rx resets and collisions with the grass back yard ground level and strange tip overs for odd reasons of unknown nature, it flies.

The 3oo has broken a dfc arm, so I made it single arm driver and after balancing the two arms one being non dfc it works great and looks cool, one +. Thing broke 3 main blade pairs and those being my own items I cut the 325 pair to 255mm and threw them on, haven't broken after so many mid air shut downs an tip overs it's amazing they are still 100%, I'll keep them on from now on because they work very well too. Lost two custom made tail blades due to vibes from the tail source so threw on chopped down 65mm's to 55mm and reshaped the tip with double taper, they are working surprisingly well, Straightened the boom because I have no other 14mm booms anywhere and the boom is sized specifically for this little bird, found some better material for the repair process like 10mm dia rod to push a dent from a boom strike out (blade did not break while hitting it). When I swapped the servo it needed a longer wire so I got a servo wire cut off and practiced a new method of attaching the two sections of wires. Taking the extra wire I pushing the two ends cleaned of 5mm of jacket to be soldered together. I meshed the tiny wires pushing them in toward each other and dropped some hot solder at the mating point, covered with heat shrink and never looked back, works wonders.

Discovered a critical component, antenna, not fully tightened down, ever so slightly loose on the tx after being ignored for almost two years since I adapted the aerial, after almost tripping over it this morning when I accidentally knocked it off a stair in the back porch.

Then hey, what would you do if the winds were gusting to 30mph and you want to test fly your repaired mini 300 rc heli projekt, you know I almost forgot it was windy at all and went right at flying it no matter what the gusty weather. Sure it was tossed around at first in a few places in the yard but I soon learned to back off collective and just fly it near zero pitch when the wind hit it, it was easy and I learned something valuable.

This little temporary nightmare 300 had caused a little aggravation and down time repairs but in the end it was well worth it, having more than half the heli apart to fix something after each kaput down falter from the sky control, dang nabbit fun, at some expense.

Hey, glad I didn't take something big out before discovering the tx item, must adhere to a check list from now on as it's more fun to fly than fix and we don't want to be set back huge by one tiny oversight.

I got a cheap Dynam 40 amp esc with 3 amp bec in it and it's working fine altogether, what do you know.

Livin large, doing fine after all the abuse it suffered getting there, I really enjoy flying as much as a challenge, it only gets better now that that little hick up is out of the way, and my keyboard strokes are improving (did that last word "improving" without looking at the keyboard)

08-17-2016 01:18 AM
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