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ProModeler Scorpion Power
chas1025

Veteran

TN

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It is not bad to talk about safety. I can tell you that most every scenario that you can imagine (except for a swarm of locust) has been played out by the IRCHA board.

This is why there are entrance ways the width of ambulances, entry exit plans for EMS/Fire/Rescue. This is why IRCHA pays for EMS and Police to be on site. The board always worries about an accident. Whether the accident includes a pilot, spectator, child, etc, it is always on the minds of everyone involved with running the event.

The pilot and safety lines, all exceed AMA specifications. The organizers have pushed the lines as far as possible within the confines of the geography of the field. Much more and the take off and landing area will be on top of the hill/ridge that runs the line.

When it comes down to it, you create the best possible plan, hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.

08-11-2016 03:10 AM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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If you move the audience back (x), or the pilot forward, you decrease the likelihood of audience contact (in the given scenario of ground impact, equipment failure/throttle hold, Heli follows parabolic arc) at more or less linear rate (it's technically exponential but so shallow for practicality it's linear).

If you move the audience up (y) as well as back (x) you decrease the likelihood of audience contact at an extremely exponential rate.

Like an ape enclosure, they throw things, so zoos design the enclosures with a gap and an elevation.

Someone better at math than me would need to do the numbers to figure out the least amount of elevation that would be most effective. But I'm guessing 4 feet would do a lot. So just have the first row of stands up four feet or so.

This only serves to help further remove the audience from danger in the ground impact, equipment failure/throttle hold, scenario.

But to me, this is the most likely scenario to cause ( and has caused) a Heli to come in contact with the audience.

Cost effective
Simple
Doesn't obstruct the view

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 04:10 AM
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Chris Bergen

Elite Veteran

cassopolis, MI USA

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A few years ago, a heli went out of control and hit our vendor tent, the BACKSIDE of the vendor tent! If then bounced off and nearly hit Matt Botos who was working behind his vendor tent!

Please explain again how far back the audience should be?

Maybe they could watch from the AMA headquarters building!!

Chris D. Bergen

08-11-2016 03:06 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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No matter what there is always gonna be exemptions to the rule. I rememeber when that happened but you could always go over the top of a net. Sure there is assumed risk and this and that but even if you can't stop it which would be tough there are things that can improve it if the blinders are not on.

NASCAR put up fences. Everyone bitched. Now you watch a race and don't even know it. Does stuff still end up in the stands? Yep. But it is improved.

Can we stop it all? No but can it be improved. Well maybe. Doesn't hurt to talk about it and at least look at it. Years ago nobody thought you could stop a driver from getting burnt.

Team Jr

08-11-2016 03:25 PM
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artimus

Key Veteran

Buckley WA

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Safty device at IRCHA?, PROTECT yourself.

Fly Hard......Team Viagra

08-11-2016 03:30 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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Artimus.
Hilarious!

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 04:01 PM
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JuanRodriguez

Elite Veteran

The Villages, Florida

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Maybe a portable "FOO Shield" is in order !!

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

08-11-2016 04:13 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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Chris

Out of control?
Why? How? Did they say?

They already increased the distance between the pilots and audience during the show. I'd be surprised if that wasn't already part of the plan for next year.

Again I'm aware you can't put people in a bulletproof box. We can only prepare for the most likely scenarios.

A straight freak occurrence of a Heli being non responsive seems to me to be extremely unlikely.

A Heli being out of control due to ground impact seems very likely. It is a given. The exact scenario of tail impact/failure, Heli out of control, throttle hold hit, Heli follows arc back to ground seems so likely to me I'm really surprised it hasn't happened before.

And I'm sure it has, as there's around 200 degrees out of 360 (radius from point of impact) where it probably wouldn't hit anything.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 04:18 PM
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revmix

Key Veteran

NJ

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Barrier: Designed to stop models from veering into pilots’ and/or spectators’ positions (Includes plastic or chain-link fencing, hay bales, shrubbery, etc.).
height?

http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/706.pdf

08-11-2016 04:33 PM
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gwright

Veteran

Champaign Il

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I’ve been watching this thread and “biting my tongue”, but I can’t resist commenting any longer. Yes a net may provide some protection so it’s probably worth doing. However, isn’t that like treating the symptom and not the disease? Yes there are sometimes failures, but many,.. probably most, of these safety “infractions” are not accidents, but a result of people flying beyond their ability and/or recklessly. If you’re doing something closer to the ground than you should, you hit the ground and break the tail, resulting in the machine flying off towards people,.. isn’t that your responsibility? Calling it an accident would be like calling a suicide from russian roulette an accident. I haven’t been in this hobby forever,.. only the last 4 decades, but I do remember when event officials would come out to the flightline and say something to pilots when they were flying in an unsafe manner. Just like everyone else, I like to see someone pushing it hard,..it’s exciting,..but it’s the same excitement, with vastly reduced danger, if the stops are a foot off the ground rather than an inch, and if it’s a few feet further out. Although I missed a few, I’ve been going to the IRCHA jamboree since the early 90’s, and in the recent years, the “enforcement” of safe flying has all but disappeared. I didn’t even see any person with authority so much as talk to people that flew without a spotter,..much less those that were flying recklessly during the event. I know it’s a subjective thing and whats reckless for one pilot may be well within another’s ability, but you can’t just dismiss the task simply because it’s subjective. If there was some “policing” of safety at the event I think it would help a lot to change attitudes and promote safer flying.

Gary Wright
Futaba
Flightpower
Prod manager at Hobbico

08-11-2016 04:51 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Gary you are spot on. I seen the same things. Just didn't go into as much detail as you but that is right. We got told once there were too many 3 to be exact over the flight line but next station over nothing said.

Team Jr

08-11-2016 04:58 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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Gary,

I think calling it an "accident" is to avoid admitting, or even acknowledging liability.

If the pilot were judged as reckless, the pilot, the host, and the venue could be blamed.

That being said I agree that it was an accident. No amount of policing skill levels can prevent this. If the event continues to grow, I could easily see referees, judges, and instant replays coming into the mix. With stipulations on "how low you can go," so a pilot could have "points" deducted for coming closer than a set number of inches off of the ground, and any ground contact would be a disqualification (I honestly can't believe they allow touch and goes).

But the event isn't there yet.

In the interim, as long as pilots are doing the lambada with the land I believe additional "barriers" (distance, nets) should be added.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 05:20 PM
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JuanRodriguez

Elite Veteran

The Villages, Florida

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I agree with Gary's well thought out comments as well as many others....

This "discussion" is nothing new.... happens after every major event and a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking takes place..... Not saying these discussions have no merit as I think they do.... BUT.......

......The sad reality is that nothing significant will happen until there is a tragic accident no matter what the cause (equipment failure, pilot stupidity, etc.)

Until that happens, this is all we are doing.

^^^^^^^

Been there, done that and old enough to know better.....

08-11-2016 05:27 PM
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revmix

Key Veteran

NJ

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Until that happens,
already dead so action is in order

08-11-2016 05:33 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Calling it an accident tho in the good ole USA does not take away liability. In fact all ppl that are ircha members can be dragged into it. Prolly won't be found liable but still costs a lot of money in defense

Team Jr

08-11-2016 05:57 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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LaDon

Of course it doesn't limit it, liability exists wherever they want to find it.

But you're an American so you know how important word games are to our system.

For those who weren't there.....

Watch at YouTube

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 06:06 PM
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LaDon

Veteran

Fort Dodge .Ia

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Yeah I know what you mean. My real point was tho is that no matter what it still can break most us normal ppl just trying to defend ourselves even when we shouldn't be included. And they can name anyone in a lawsuit. Some parts of our country is really messed up

Team Jr

08-11-2016 06:13 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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I've avoided posting that until now,
Because a discussion of what the pilot did right or wrong doesn't change anything.

I'm sure we all have opinions on that.

But this shows the type of accident and the result. As I've already said, I'm surprised this hasn't happened before. I don't get too low with my Gobbie (she's currently my one and only so she's precious) but when I sim this very scenario (tail failure due to contact with ground) happens a lot.
And I practice what to do (throttle hold being key).

The pilot did that, and as long as that is the least they do, moving the audience (at center stage) back and up (vertically, first row of stands be 4 or more feet up) decreases the likelihood of audience impact.

I'm just restating my concept to go along with the video, because it shows the arc that throttle-less Heli will travel in.

I believe this would only need to be for center stage, because that is where the most active lowest maneuvers happen.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 06:28 PM
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revmix

Key Veteran

NJ

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weren't there.....
?
Spectator line 65 feet or more from safety line

08-11-2016 06:28 PM
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heliraptor10

Key Veteran

kokomo, in-US

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Revmix

At IRCHA I believe the "safety line" has no visual indicator. From the AMA guidelines you posted it should be that they walk another 25 feet from the pilot cone to place the Heli, and that in theory the Heli should never come closer than that.

Goblin! where have you been all my life?

08-11-2016 07:07 PM
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