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Scorpion Power System . Ron's RC Helicopters . Thunder Power RC
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Gyro setting question

MichiganFlyer

Elite Veteran

Lansing,MI

You have a very incorrectly set up heli. With a 0-25-50-75-100 pitch curve at mid stick your pitch needs to be zero. Say full pitch is 10 then full down/negative stick should be negative 10 degrees.
You need to shorten all your cyclic linkages.
Set your pitch curve to 50-50-50-50-50. Now Adjust your three cyclic linkages so the swash ball is about mid way on the travel of the main shaft. Next level your swash with a swash leveling tool and use your sub trim to make it level. Now adjust your head to zero pitch.
Go back and adjust your pitch curve to 0-25-50-75-100. You should now have full pitch range.
Set your normal pitch at 45(negative)-45-50-75-100.
Idleup pitch at 0-25-50-75-100.
Under 50 is negative pitch that is below mid stick.
I hope this helps.

Friends don't encourage friends to fly helis! It can cause part shortages.

04-08-2012 Over year old.
Solmanbandit

Elite Veteran

Glendale, AZ

Fenderstrat, I have checked the pitch with TH on and at mid stick it is -3 and goes up to +10.
Ok, I see part of your problem. At mid stick, you should be at 0 degrees. -3 should be at the low throttle position. +10 should be at full throttle. You need about 4-6 degrees of pitch to lift off. So if you are at -3 at mid throttle, you must be around 3/4 throttle just to lift off the ground. As a suggestion, I have been using the Assan GA250 gyro. It is a clone gyro of the spartan and works great for me. I do light 3D and tail slides and it holds great.
If you're using a JR/Spektrum radio an the Gyro Sense Menu, numbers greater than 50 will put you in Heading Hold mode, numbers less than 50 will put you in normal/rate mode.
Guys, this is false information. I don't know why this keeps coming up, but it is false. HH mode and rate mode is based on what position the gear switch is. It is not based on the percentage of gain on newer gyro's. This also holds true on the the 401 gyro's as well. FBL may have different setup processes.
You can go the extra setup step of hovering the heli with the gyro in normal/rate mode and adjusting the TR pushrod length
This should not be an extra step. It should be part of the setup process unless your gyro instructions tell you not to do so.
To find the "right" setting for gyro gain, put the heli into fast forward flight.
If someone is still in the hovering mode, this may not be an option. An easier way and what I personally see as a better way is to hover it and give it a full throttle pump. If it washes out, increase the gain. If it jitters, lower the gain. Make sure you are in HH mode and you have centered the tail in rate mode first.

Trex 450 Pro-AR7200BX / Trex 500 ESP - Beastx / Trex 600E - Ikon

04-08-2012 Over year old.
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

When telling us what your pitch curves are, the raw numbers out of the transmitter are useless. The numbers that you end up with in the swash mix menu also don't necessarily matter, they are what they are when you've got your mechanical setup done correctly. That "60%" number in that menu is just a place to begin. Once you've used your pitch gauge to set overall collective pitch and elevator/aileron cyclic pitch values, that "60" number may be something completely different.

Since you have a pitch gauge, it's best to state what the pitch settings are.

For normal mode, as I've posted before, a pitch curve of -2 (or -3) degrees at low stick, about 6 degrees at mid-stick, and perhaps 10 degrees at high stick will be good.

For your "stunt mode" (DX6i only has one idle up) you can go for -12 at low stick, zero degrees at mid stick, and +12 at high stick. Go ahead and set your throttle hold pitch curve to match the stunt mode pitch curve. This will be good for later.

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Also, for your normal mode throttle setting, that 0 - 85 - 85 - 85 - 85 throttle curve is fine (or you could go 0 - 85 - 90 - 95 - 100 if you wish).

Your stunt mode throttle curve will work just fine at a flat 85% all the way across (or a flat line anywhere at 85% or greater). Yes, you could do the 100% - 85% - 100% "V" shaped curve in the stunt mode, but there really is no need for the dip in the middle as there would be with a nitro powered heli.

There is nothing wrong with using the DX6i Gyro Sense menu to run your gyro gain, as long as you simply set it up correctly.

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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

04-08-2012 Over year old.
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

Guys, this is false information. I don't know why this keeps coming up, but it is false. HH mode and rate mode is based on what position the gear switch is. It is not based on the percentage of gain on newer gyro's. This also holds true on the the 401 gyro's as well.
It keeps coming up because it is correct. When using the GYRO SENSE MENU, the GEAR SWITCH DOES NOT CONTROL THE GYRO GAIN, the FLIGHT MODE SWITCH does. Usually the GYRO SENSE menu will allow either the Flight Mode switch to control the gain ("Auto" mode), or the Rudder Dual Rate switch (if you select RUDD D/R in the menu).

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The Gyro sense menu only has possible values of 0 to 100. At that, 0 to 50 WILL put the gyro into normal mode, 0 is equivalent to 100% gain in normal mode, 50 is equivalent to 0 gain (essentially the gyro is out of the picture). As you increase the number from 50 towards 100, the gyro is in HH mode, and the gain goes from 0 at the 50 setting up to 100% at 100%.

The FLIGHT MODE switch controls the gyro when using the GYRO Sense menu, the GEAR switch does NOT.

If you intend to use the GEAR switch, then the GEAR switch must be enabled, and the gear travel endpoints will set the gain. Since these values go from 0 to 100 (one range for each position of the switch), with the gear switch in one position, you will get a normal mode setting, for the other position of the switch you will get a heading hold setting. "0" in either position yields zero gain, 100 in either position yields 100% gain. And the gain is controlled by the GEAR switch.

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With the gyro gain controlled by the Gyro Sense Menu, it is a very simple experiment to look at the LED on the gyro that indicates HH and Normal mode operation. With the Gyro sense number set to 100%, the indicator will show the gyro to be in HH mode. Decrease the setting towards zero, when you get to the 50% mark, the gyro will switch over to Normal mode and will stay there as you continue toward zero. Start increasing back to 100, at 50%, the gyro will switch back to HH mode as you keep going.

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And, with the Gyro Sense menu selected, and run by the flight mode switch, you will also see that no matter what you do to the GEAR switch OR the Gear switch endpoints, it will NOT affect the gyro gain.

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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

04-08-2012 Over year old.
Solmanbandit

Elite Veteran

Glendale, AZ

It keeps coming up because it is correct. When using the GYRO SENSE MENU, the GEAR SWITCH DOES NOT CONTROL THE GYRO GAIN, the FLIGHT MODE SWITCH does. Usually the GYRO SENSE menu will allow either the Flight Mode switch to control the gain ("Auto" mode), or the Rudder Dual Rate switch (if you select RUDD D/R in the menu).
If you want to use the gyro menu, then go for it. When I first got into the heli's, I used the gyro menu and always had issues with spektrum radios. I was then taught to inhibit the gyro menu and use the gear in travel adjustments. This fixed my problems and have used it ever since. I use the flight mode switch to change my mode from normal to idle up modes. My gyro will always stay in HH mode unless I want rate mode for setup. Since I do not use the gyro menu, I will take what you say as true if the gyro menu is used.

Trex 450 Pro-AR7200BX / Trex 500 ESP - Beastx / Trex 600E - Ikon

04-08-2012 Over year old.
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

There is absolutely no reason NOT to use the Gyro Sense menu in the DX6i to control your gyro. Because YOU had trouble figuring it out doesn't mean everyone will.

I have an X9303 radio, and when I have a 7 channel or greater receiver installed, I ALWAYS use the Gyro Sense menu to control the gains. When I have a 6 channel receiver installed, I am forced to use the Gear switch, so I understand how to use BOTH methods to control the gyro.

I have NEVER experienced problems using the Gyro Sense menu. Using it is about as simple as falling off a log.

With the DX6i, using the Gyro Sense menu gives you two options for controlling gyro gain:

The flight mode switch (mounted on the top left, front corner of the transmitter where it is in almost all heli-transmitters), or the Gyro switch which is awkwardly mounted on the upper front panel, just above the left stick, nearer the center of the transmitter.

If you select F.MODE, then the flight mode switch controls the gain. If you choose Gyro, then the Gyro switch controls the gain.

In EITHER case, the numbers in the menu have the same meaning:

0 to 50 is Normal Mode (0 equal to 100% gain, 50 equal to 0 gain)
50 to 100 is HH mode (50 is equal to 0 gain, 100 is equal to 100% gain).

And since the actual number really doesn't matter, it's best to pick a starting point of about 65 - 70, then go fly and adjust from there. The number you eventually end up with is the gain you'll fly with.

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The DX6i appears to be set up so that once you select HELI mode, what would have been the GEAR switch for an airplane (top, left, front corner) becomes the Flight mode switch. That switch is then used to control the pitch curves, and the throttle curves, and optionally under the Gyro menu, Gyro gain.

The Flap switch (upper left, front panel, just above the left stick near center) becomes the "Gyro" switch in helicopter operation. If, in the Gyro menu you select "gyro", this switch will control the gain, instead of the flight mode switch, but the numbers in the gyro sense menu are the controlling numbers.

I suspect that if the Gyro menu is set to "INH", then the Gyro switch will still control the gyro gain, but the endpoint setting for that channel will be the controlling values, and those would mimic the "gear" mode you enjoy.

The option of using the "gear" switch as you state, appears not to be available with the DX6i in helicopter mode as that switch becomes the flight mode switch.

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As for setting the gain using the pitch pumping method, yes, that would work, but for someone just learning to hover, THAT can be an unnerving experience, also.

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With the introduction of the new DX7S and the DX8 (and probably the other Spektrum radios of 7 channels or greater), the Gyro sense menu is still there, but with the ability to assign switches and channels to control the gyro and governor (usually the two "extra" controls we heli guys need to worry about), radio setup becomes a bit more interesting and you really need to understand your transmitter and what it can, and cannot do.

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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

04-08-2012 Over year old.
Solmanbandit

Elite Veteran

Glendale, AZ

There is absolutely no reason NOT to use the Gyro Sense menu in the DX6i to control your gyro. Because YOU had trouble figuring it out doesn't mean everyone will.

I have an X9303 radio, and when I have a 7 channel or greater receiver installed, I ALWAYS use the Gyro Sense menu to control the gains.
I had problems figuring it out because I didn't own any 7 channels receivers at the time. So it wasn't that I did something wrong, just didn't own any 7 channel receivers and therefore could not use the gyro menu. So my fix of using the gear channel was the correct fix. Now with that way of thinking, does SGM own a 6 channle or 7 channel? He most likely owns a 6 channel since he is using the DX6I, so your concept of using the gyro menu is false. I have heard about using Aux 2 on the DX7. The reason being is that for my purpose and setups, I don't have a need for 7 channel receivers.
The option of using the "gear" switch as you state, appears not to be available with the DX6i in helicopter mode as that switch becomes the flight mode switch.
I own a DX6I and a 9303. In the case of the DX6I, There is a gyro travel adjust for the gain.

Trex 450 Pro-AR7200BX / Trex 500 ESP - Beastx / Trex 600E - Ikon

04-08-2012 Over year old.
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

He has a DX6i, and what I've posted regarding the gyro sense menu is correct.

I tend to research answers before I post. The DX6i manual agrees with the information I have posted.

As the DX6i IS only a six channel transmitter, it would have been really weird for them to expect channel 7/Aux 2 to control the gain. They had to make some changes to the software, and in so doing, the gyro gain IS controlled by Channel 5 of the RX, but it IS controlled from the Gyro Sense menu via the Flight Mode switch OR the Gyro switch, depending upon which of the two selections is chosen in the menu.

The DX6i also had to get somewhat creative in making it suitable for fixed wing AND helicopters. In so doing, when you select Heli mode operation, that Gear switch BECOMES the Flight mode switch, and it controls the pitch curve, the throttle curve, and as stated, optionally the Gyro gain.

The Flap switch also becomes the Gyro switch in heli mode, and if used in conjunction with the Gyro sense menu, controls gyro gain based on the two values entered in the Gyro sense menu.

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I understand that you have only dealt with 6 channel receivers, and that is why the Gyro sense menu never worked for you. In the older DX7, DX7SE, and X9303/X9503, the Gyro Sense menu defaults to requiring the gyro gain be controlled via channel 7 (Aux 2). Therefore, you just can't use the Gyro Sense menu in a 6 channel RX.

However -- the original DX7 and DX7SE -- do allow you to actually USE channel 5 of the RX in conjunction with the Gyro Sense menu, there is some versatility built into its programming that isn't there with radios such as the XP8103 and X9303/X9503. But, if you don't tell the older DX7/DX7SE to use channel 5 for gyro control under the Gyro Sense menu, the default IS channel 7. Oddly enough, even the JR 7202 (upon which the DX7 was based) allows the gyro sense menu control to be directed out of channel 7 (default) or channel 5 (user selectable), allowing people with a 6 channel RX to fully use the Gyro Sense menu and all its glorious settings. Why that wasn't carried over into the X9303/X9503, I don't understand.

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In the case of the DX6I, There is a gyro travel adjust for the gain.
Since you're not using the Gyro Sense menu (I suspect it is set to INH in your case), then the Gyro gain is still controlled out of channel 5 (it's the only channel you have for that purpose), and would be under control of the Gyro switch, and that would have two settings controlled by the travel adjust menu, correct?

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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

04-08-2012 Over year old.
SGM Retired

Senior Heliman

Toney, AL. USA

Holy crap guys y'all are 10 years of information over my head. I have sat in on General level briefings and not got a headache like this. I remember a 4 Star at the Pentagon one time stop the meeting and told every briefer in the room to bring it back down to earth. Needless to say after everyone got their breath it was a pleasant meeting.

With that said I'm ready to try anything, I'm done flipping switches in mid flight anyway. Test and Tune, Trial and Error will take place on the ground or 2 inches hover.

I was told never to use rudder trim on front panel of Tx. What would happen if I did just 2 clicks to see if that kept it straight? I usually have other trim once I get into the air but I zero them out before next takeoff and trim again as needed.

Trex 500FB Trex 600ePro McpX. Synergy E7SE

04-08-2012 Over year old.
Solmanbandit

Elite Veteran

Glendale, AZ

You are correct.

Trex 450 Pro-AR7200BX / Trex 500 ESP - Beastx / Trex 600E - Ikon

04-08-2012 Over year old.
fenderstrat

rrProfessor

Aston,Pa

Fenderstrat, I have checked the pitch with TH on and at mid stick it is -3 and goes up to +10. So help me understand again the relationship of -3/+10 pitch on blades to the 0-25-50-75-100 pitch curve. Thanks for helping me understand how this stuff works.
what is your throttle hold curve set to?


also,are your long range plans to eventually do some aerobatic flight such as flips rolls and loops.I KNOW you are just starting and only hovering but is it something you will be interested in later on?The reason I ask is because if the answer is yes,it is better to set your heli for a normal 3D set up and get used to it now.As opposed to setting it up scale like(which some guys say but I do not agree)and then having a totally different feel to the controls when you switch over.as in hover at mid stick vs 0 pitch at mid stick

Compass helis Support Team
PerformancePlusRC field rep
Mini Titan/SE
TEAM KBDD

04-08-2012 Over year old.
taxus812

Senior Heliman

Conecticut - USA

It will explode and cut everyone around to pieces

Honestly It depends on the gyro design but probably not much. (give it one click and watch it). The gyro will read the trim as if you are constently putting in a rudder correction. The actual effect could differ from manufacture to manufacturer.

My JR J500T didn't care so much in flight(I experimented). The issue would be on next flight if I forgot to center the trims. The gyro initialized off center and would just keep slowly rotating ( until you put in counter rudder). I would have to land. Recenter the trim and cycle the power.

Man is so anxious about his future that he does not enjoy the present. - Dalai Lama

04-08-2012 Over year old.
SGM Retired

Senior Heliman

Toney, AL. USA

Well, as of yesterday evenings flight I believe I have fix'd the gyro hold slight turn bug. I ended up adjusting the tail rod end for mechanical setup. My LHS told me it was correct but after looking at it and reading dkshema post about checking I started the half turn adjust and check for effects.

I turned in 1 turn and it turned left worse. Turned out 2 turns and had a slight right turn so went in half turn and presto all went well. Now if I go out and it starts all over again I will take a look at the tail grips.

With that said does anyone out there still have plastic tail setups? I look at mine and they just have to much slop in them. I have tightened them down but can still move the left/right as in a wobble. Thanks again for everyone's help here, I still have some adjustments to do to get the pitch stuff working correct.

Let me know what y'all think of the plastic grips, that might be the next up grade. Thanks.

Trex 500FB Trex 600ePro McpX. Synergy E7SE

04-10-2012 Over year old.
Solmanbandit

Elite Veteran

Glendale, AZ

Glad to hear that it is getting better. You will always have a little bit of slop moving the tail pitch slider. I have tried many things and still can't get it tight. It doesn't ever affect the flight, so I just let it go.

Trex 450 Pro-AR7200BX / Trex 500 ESP - Beastx / Trex 600E - Ikon

04-10-2012 Over year old.
dkshema

rrMaster

Cedar Rapids, IA

The grips are probably just fine, don't worry about the "slop" too much, however. Remember that these babies will be turning close to zillion RPM in flight, and the centrifugal forces will pretty much take care of the slop.

The tried and tested Hirobo Sceadu EVO 50 was notorious for it's tail rotor grip "slop", but it performed admirably in the air.

You may want to look at the thrust bearings in the tail rotor grips, however, making sure you have them properly installed. The individual bearing races have slightly different diameter holes. The race with the slightly larger hole goes closest to the hub, the race with the smaller diameter hole goes closest to the blade attach bolt.

If you get those backward, the thrust bearing can bind under load. Also check any standard radial bearings for damage, wear or other problems.

Make sure the pitch slider assembly is as free to move as you can get it.

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Dave

* Making the World Better -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Team Heliproz

04-10-2012 Over year old.
Kaborkian

Heliman

Lafayette, LA USA

If adjusting the tail push rod length fixed your trim problem, the gyro is in rate mode, not heading hold. Need to try changing the gain output, which you can do by reversing channel 5 or adjusting the output from 70ish to 30ish.

04-10-2012 Over year old.
SGM Retired

Senior Heliman

Toney, AL. USA

Thanks Dave for the maintenance check verification, will do.

Kaborkian, My gyro gain is at 65% so is that not HH? I'm not sure how this Heli would one time turn left and the next flight would turn right. But that's here nor there it's tracking straight now so don't won't the grimmlins to come back out again.

Trex 500FB Trex 600ePro McpX. Synergy E7SE

04-10-2012 Over year old.
Kaborkian

Heliman

Lafayette, LA USA

Depends on which side of neutral the gyro wants and which way the transmitter defines positive and negative direction.

To check, turn everything on, heli on the counter. Grab the tail and slowly rotate it around about 90 degrees. If the servo returns to center immediately, its in rate mode. If the servo moves to one extreme and basically stays there, its in hh.

If its in rate mode, either reverse the gain channel or change your setting to 35

04-14-2012 Over year old.
Hard flyer

Heliman

Australia

Setups headspeeds

[url=http://riddickpatchers@hotmail.com]
Hi guys I thought I'll try to explain and easy way,because I do believe having to change headspeed as 40 - 50 - 75 - 100 in TH and pitch is a bad behavior,please
Everything relies on what size heli but when you put it together they all do the same.
This guy need same help so I try putting this way to learn to fly and get his co dent.
What anyone should do to learn is understand with .castle creation ESC firstly and totally understand gyros go for b-Vbar or Futaba CGY750 there is lot to understand but you can make it easy way if you. Are having trouble reading,go to smacktalk downloads episode's from 1 to 25 watching can help to set and better to understand.
Let's go for a T-Rex 700,they came stock in electric ,teeth pinion set 12, main gear 112 ,if you don't understand 3G gyro buy blue V bar or CGY750 and watch smacktalk episode's this will help you all the way.
As for head speed within castle creation 120 or buy a 160 mha cc,
Idle up 1 always set to castle creation at 30 percent, in your transmitter set to 0-30 - 30 - 30 - 30 %.
Pitch. As this must be done be for,during setup on your transmitter,you need a pitch gauge, its a must,and always learn center feeling on your transmitter, always put transmitter pitch right in the middle, put your pitch gauge saying 0 degree (0)!!!!,on your blades and adjusts mechanically only and make shore they are both the same.
Turn everything on you heli but make shore your motor is disconnected.
Go to your pitch curve on your transmitter check when you put TH/pitch stick,that in center,then check that you are at 0% degree's.
Now put you stick right down and watch your pitch go's to neg all the way down,now move nub-1 on pitch curves up and watch your pitch go towards to pos,watching your pitch gauge come to 4- or 3-% neg.
Stop there.
This will say on your transmitter on a % rate around 43% or 45 % -
now all you need to do is move the 2nd point to 47% that's greater then your first point.
Point 3 set this at 50% which should tell you are at 0 degree pitch.
Now set the rest of your pitch on how responsive you want but because you are learning,just keep it at normal 4th point at 75% -at 5th at 100%.
but be shore that at 100% thro on TH/pitch,that on your pitch gauge,it no more then 12 degree's ok,on all idle up's
in castle creation it would tell you second headspeed setting 70% and your 3/head speed at 100% set them as to the size of your heli.
There are as you know there different motors as to KV's
Just keep the motor that you've got.
Understand your gyro and make shore that understand it is so important. And anything of the gyro is for your tail setup,don't use sub trim at all,adjust it mechanically.
Setups take's time but that the fun of it all.
As you are learning we are too we crash and so we setup again,again.
After a few setups you will have more confident in you flying and that we you will improve.
Just a tip fly 3 mistakes hight so you don't crash as often.
Have fun,hope this help.
Kind regards
Hard flyer


On your transmitter you can set your pitch range on I'd

04-27-2012 Over year old.
SGM Retired

Senior Heliman

Toney, AL. USA

Wow Hardflyer if I didn't have a headache I do now after reading your post. You are about 2 years over my head in your writing. I understand some of what you talk about but some got me out there. I have never see the smack down site your said so will try that and see if I can understand from there. Thanks for your help.

Trex 500FB Trex 600ePro McpX. Synergy E7SE

04-27-2012 Over year old.
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