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Heli Wholesaler . JR-Spektrum . E-flite

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e-MS Composit Hornet > Hornet frustration
 
 
pxb
Heliman
Location: St. Peters, MO

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I recently purchased a complete Hornet package from Helihobby and have been very disappointed. They advertise their package will be "...as smooth and responsive as a gas powered heli." Is this possible or are they on drugs? This has been a horrible experience so far - I am fed up. I bought a complete package because I didn't want to tinker - I wanted to fly. Will one of these helihobby packages ever work "out-of-the-box", or am I going to have to spend weeks tweaking this thing until it works. They included no instructions on setting up there "package" and have provided no help other than directing me to a custom Hornet builder. Is there any good websites for how to set one of these things up???
10-18-2003 Over year old.
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HiroboEric
Veteran
Location: Los Angeles, CA.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hey PXB why don't I help you; the hornet is really great once you get set up. It's just a little head strong.

Eric Pacheco, AirWorksRC.com
10-18-2003 Over year old.
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pxb
Heliman
Location: St. Peters, MO

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		OK, Thanks, here goes -

Goal: I want an electric helicopter to practice inverted, backwards, and backwards inverted (ie, 3D)
in the back yard without disturbing the neighbors.

Setup (Helihobby Wizard package):
Hornet CP
Hacker B20-22
Phoenix 10
Berg 5 ch (Futaba 8UHP TX)
HLG200 Heading Hold gyro
HS-50 servos (also tried others on tail)
ETech 3-cell Li battery
Westech charger
Metal Swashplate
Metal tail bellcrank
Metal shaft collar
Metal CP Head
16/18 speed up tail gears
Extra shaft support bearing

Building issues (an $800 dollar package deal should include a tip sheet):
Hacker motor needed top bearing block filed/milled to fit
Anti-Rotation Arm allen wrench wouldn't fit set screws
Wrench fit, but set screws wrong size for pinion
Swashplate anti-rotation arm provides very limited swashplate movement
Speed-up gears needed to have spacer size adjusted
Couldn't find a double sided tape that would hold servos securely

Flying issues:
Seems like a standard issue - tail control is a disaster. I can't
increase the gain on the HLG200 much past off without tail wag. I am running
the Phoenix 10 in governor mode and tried headspeeds between 1800-1950. Best
improvement so far was to REMOVE the upgraded bellcrank and go back to the stock
unit. On the "upgraded" metal unit the ball on the bellcrank/pitch slider
connection is so far from the tail shaft that the slider had excessive play.

I bought a 3D Hornet Package because I DON'T WANT TO TINKER, I WANT TO FLY.
With the parts I have now, EXACTLY WHAT DO I NEED TO DO TO GET A SOLID TAIL?

Cyclic response - dull, can't get pitch authority without jamming swashplate anti-rotation pin.

Radio glitching - Where does the antenna/radio need to go/not go to avoid interefence.

What else do I need to do to get to the website statement --
"With Full CCPM mixing your Micro Hornet will feel as smooth and responsive as any Glow powered Heli."

Thanks --
10-18-2003 Over year old.
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greenhornet
Heliman
Location: Tacoma, Washington

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I glued my servos on with RTV silicone. I have tried various varieties of double stick tape but it usually comes apart. Hitec uses an oily plastic on the HS-50 servos. I cleaned the servos with JP-8 jet fuel.(kerosene)
Then I made sure they were totally dry. I put a small bead of silicone around the servo. You have to hold them in place for about 10 to 15 minutes. After that the RTV starts to set. I let is sit over night to gain full bonding strength. It is even stronger than ca glue. I have tried that too but ca doesn't stick very well to the plastic servo plates. I have found that Plasti-Zap is the best glue for use on the Hornet. If you ever have to remove the servos just slide dental floss under the servo and saw through the RTV.
As far as the other issues. Small helicopters are higher maintenance than the full size. I like the Hornet because it has a real tail rotor setup. It is also a source of real headache. I just put the thrust bearing equiped tail rotor assembly on my Hornet. It made a world of difference. I got the t/r assembly from Dennis at Dee Tee Enterprises. I have had my Hornet since March. It took me a while to get the stock tail mostly vibration free. I replied to a post yesterday here on Runryder on how I setup my tail. The post was "Why have a basic Hornet kit?" I don't fly all that well but I have been building helicopters for years. I also have maintained full sized helis. I still have the plastic tail gear case with the speed up gears and I put the metal pitch lever on from Helli Hobby. I had the modified plastic lever come apart while I was flyinjg and the string got wrapped around the tail rotor. I put extra bearings in the tail boom while I was assembling the kit. I have a total of 5 bearings in the tail shaft. The extra bearings made a world of difference. I have the stock bearing at the front but the rest of the bearings I have are from a local bearing shop in Seattle. The stock bearings that came with my Hornet were crap. Half of them were very rough right out of the box. I am slowly putting metal parts on my Hornet as the plastic ones wear out. Another mod is lengthen the lading gear. The tail is real close to the ground. I will do that when I return home or when the heli needs to be put back together. Another benefit of a taller landing gear is it will have a wider stance. I hope this helps. Helis by nature require alot of maintenance. I have a Logo 10 and it requires less maintenance than the Hornet but I give it thurough post and pre flight inspections like I do on the Hornet.

Cheers,

Shannon
10-19-2003 Over year old.
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pxb
Heliman
Location: St. Peters, MO

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Thanks for your response. I ended up CA-ing the servos because I couldn't get any of the double sided tapes I tried to work (too much play and kept coming loose). I like the RTV idea much better than CA and will give it a try, sounds much easier to remove and probably less brittle than the CA connection.

Against my better judgement (I am over $1000 now and hate the idea of pouring good money after bad), I have ordered extra ball bearings for the tail shaft and all metal parts in back. I have pulled the blades and run up the tail, the pushrod movement is very smooth, but there was quite a bit of vibration. Hopefully your tail bearing suggestion and all metal tail parts will cure this.

What kills me is why am I having to figure all of the tips, tricks, secrets, etc. by trial and error and hunting down information on the Internet??? I bought a PACAKGE DEAL that claimed "... will out perform most nitro powered Heli's" and "smooth and responsive as any gas powered Heli" This Hornet would require 5000% improvement to get to half the performance of my worst flying beater gas helicopter. You would think that a company selling a performance package would include the instructions to make the package work. Or at least answer e-mails with something more than a canned generic response to seek help from a professional Hornet builder. DOES ANYONE HAVE A SET OF PARTS AND SETUP INSTUCTIONS THAT WILL WORK????

I think I have been suckered by the ads (didn't do enough research beforehand) into believing this helicopter has more capability than in really does. I had very specific goal for this helicopter - practice inverted, backwards, and backwards inverted in the back yard without bugging the neighbors. I didn't enter into this project because I wanted to get into micro helicopters, I did it to have a small, quiet, backyard 3D practice machine. I have probably met many Hornet owners criteria for success - I have about an hour of backyard hovering and basic forward flight, figure eights, turns, etc. But this is not "out performing a nitro powered Heli" With the lack of cyclic and tail performance, I am afraid that without spending a lot more money all I am stuck with is a cute hover machine. A $1000 crummy helicopter hover machine.
10-19-2003 Over year old.
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hornet dave
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsburgh PA USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		There is a learning curve associated with the hornet, that's for sure, I've been at it for about 2 yrs.

First off, try closer to 2300 or 2400 RPM to increase your cyclic response. Hell, the hornet barely flies at 1800 RPM. If you're still not satified, lighten your flybar paddles or buy the 3-D paddles that go with the threaded flybar. I think some guys run as high as 2600 rpm or so.

Concerning the gyro, the first order of business is to get the tail rotor system sorted out. The tail rotor output shaft should run true, of course, and must not have any slop, or else you'll get vibes above about 1700 rpm. If you can move the end of the tail rotor shaft up/down or fwd/back, you need to pre-load the bearing races a little more, perhaps with a small washer or make a new plastic spacer. Next, you need to make sure the tail rotor hub is perpendicular to the shaft. Go to your LHS and get a couple pieces of 2mm threaded rod. Cut them to 3 or 4" long, screw them all the way into your tail rotor hub, and measure the distance between the end of one of the threaded rods and your tail boom. Now, rotate the tail rotor hub 180 degrees and measure the distance to the other threaded rod. These distances should be equal, but they probably wont be. You can remove the tail rotor hub and lightly sand the tail rotor shaft to get a little wiggle room to play with, then adjust the tail rotor hub on the shaft until it's perpendicular and then glue it into place. The alternative is to open up the 2mm hole in the tail rotor hub a little bit so that you can adjust it to be perpendicular to the shaft.

OK, the hard part is done. Now, assemble everything back together, and move the tail pitch slider towards the tail gear box. Do you notice that it binds? There's a few methods to remove the binding, you can look that up at the hornet heli website (www.hornet-heli.com go to the bulletin board). Now, use a moly grease on the threads of the tail rotor hub, and lithium grease has been suggested for the tail pitch slider itself (it seems to work fine with the bronze bushing tail pitch slider from MS).

If this doesnt cure your tail wagging problem, you may want to try an alternative battery mounting location, hanging the battery on the nose and moving other components to the rear of the heli to get it to balance (eric larson's hornet is set up this way, his tail rotor servo is mounted at the aft end of the tail boom). This increases the polar moment of inertia of the heli, which should dampen the tail rotor response. The other alternative to try would be a ball bearing tail rotor hub, available from either deetee enterprises or microheli. Or, try a GY240 (or 401 if you happen to have a 6ch micro receiver).

The bottom line is that you CAN get your hornet to perform quite nicely, but it takes time and patience.

Oh, you might be able to find a local hornet flier to help you sort things out. I'm in pittsburgh myself.
10-19-2003 Over year old.
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Sealerman
Veteran
Location: Long Island, New York.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		MS Hornet Tail vibrations

I to have a Hornet in which I have spent more time taming the tail then I have spent completely building any of my other helis. I have well over a $1000 and feel like a idiot for spending so much. My Hornet flys well when it is set up right, which was once or twice. But as soon as I look wrong at that tail it gives me problems. The most resent one is I put on a 16T and 18 T gear set. The tail vibrates in a small R.P.M. range right before full R.P.M. is reached. I have a Phoenix 10 set up for govener.
When the tail vibrates it shift the gear box on the tail boom.
I have a 240 Gyro that I have to set very low because of this vibration.
I have spent at least a 10 to 1 ratio of tinkering to fling. But for some reason I can not give up. I do not recommend this heli to anyone because I feel lucky when it flies well. To truly know how to set this heli up you need to be an engineer or so it seems to me.
10-19-2003 Over year old.
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mattijs
Senior Heliman
Location: Keerbergen Belgium

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		That's it, i am going piccolo...unless ofcourse somebody assures me that a hornet with two motors IS a better flier than a piccolo...it sure is a more beautiful one.....
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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pxb
Heliman
Location: St. Peters, MO

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hornet Dave,

Thanks for the the RPM and tail rotor info. I wanted to try higher headspeed but at anything over 1950 the tail start shaking wildly and sounds like it is about to explode. I am guessing it is the tail drive shaft shaking and I have another upgrade bearing on order (total of three now). After I get the new bearing installed I will bump the headspeed up to the 2200-2300 range and see how it goes. I also have 3D paddles plus all metal tail parts as part of the same order. The linkage is smooth, I checked it with the blades off and the motor run up - I moly greased the screw shaft, I haven't greased the tail shaft for the pitch slider but will give it a try. I would really love to have someone like Eric Larson or whoever built his bird to explain EXACTLY what upgrade parts, EXACTLY how they are mounted, head speeds, tail mods, servo/battery/RX locations, etc. to have an honest to goodness 3D helicopter that works. My guess is that no store will put togeather a website like that because it would give people a true indication of the cost and effort involved (i.e. two year learning curves) and they would never sell another one of these helicopters. The profit margin on a Hornet must be insane, think about what you are paying for about 3 ounces of plastic....


Sealerman,

I, also, feel like an idiot for pursuing this nightmare any furthur - but like you I feel I cannot give up. We are making some store owners very happy. I guess I just don't want to feel defeated by a piece of plastic. My wife says she thinks the helicopter is cute, it looks like one of the kids toys. My response was -- that good, because it flys like one of the kids toys. No I take that back, the kids Vertibird flys much better. The one ray of hope is that I don't feel lied to about the flight time. I am easily getting 25+ minute flights (all in basically stationary hover). On the bright side, after having flown this thing I think I could now fly a gas helicopter with a gyro failure...

I'll post the results of the new tailbox, increased headspeed, bearings, and 3D paddles after the experiments are complete --

Thanks for the responses, talk to you later ---
Paul
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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hornet dave
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsburgh PA USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		haha Sealerman - i WAS an aerospace engineer. I must say that my college level vibrations courses really helped me with my hornet.
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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Sealerman
Veteran
Location: Long Island, New York.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		The idiot is giving up

Hi guys,
I have been working on the tail vibrations all weekend.
I have built 2 gear boxs after market gears 18T to 18T and 16T to 18T.
Metal tail shafts up graded tail slide and control arm. New bearings and balanced the tail blades. I have read about the many possible causes and many ways to try to solve them.
I have flown these helis (I have 2) a few times each and have found if there is any wind at all they are not fun.
I have had a scale heli of mine pictured in Model heli world mag and I build models for some of the members in the clubs that I belong to. The fun to labor ratio on these heli's is pathetic. All of the people that I have contacted over the web for help with this toy are incredibly helpful and have a level of dedication to these micro heli's that I do not. I have had these heli's for 3 months now and ever time I crash or change a part there is a new problem that has 5 to 10 different possible causes. I am going to be selling the heli's minus the electronics and the many spare parts many of which are still in their package. If any one is interested I can put togather a list (main shafts, gears bearings etc) please if you are looking for me to take another beating by giving them away have mercy and don't waste both of our time. Good luck to you all.
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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greenhornet
Heliman
Location: Tacoma, Washington

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hornet Dave, I am an engineer also. I am finally going to college to make it official. It is a long road. I am in the Air Force reserve and I get called up to duty often so my 4 year plan is turning into a 20 year plan. I am going for the aerospace engineering with a minor in electrical. I have worked both systems in both civilian and militairy and there are a lot of things I would like to change. My engineering experience and inclination help me greatly in this hobby. Especially with the helicopters. I have been helping others set up their model helicopters and airplanes since 1988. I still can only hover.(nose-in) I am learning to tail -in hover. I just got into the electirc helis last November. I got a Logo 10. It went together so well and with very little problem. I live in Tacoma where it rains alot. That is why I got a Hornet. I knew it would be challenging. But for me it is well worth it. Helicopters by nature require more maintenance. Some more than others. As far as the high speed tail vibration. I just put the thrust bearing tail hub on from Dennis at Dee Tee Enterprises. I ran up the heli to full power. (I have a HackerB20-22S) The tail has never run smoother. I had no vibration. I think my bearing mod I did when I assembled the heli eliminated all of the shaft vibrations. I put 2 extra bearings in the tail. I put the extra bearings between the middle bearing on the tail boom an the ends. So the configuration is:end bearing,intermediate bearing, center bearing, intermediate bearing, end bearing. I also chucked the stock bearings because they re rough right out of the box. Rough bearings on a heli are bad news. I had to use the stock bearing at the front of the tail boom. The bearings I got from the bearing shop were slightly bigger on the outside. They fit the boom and the tail rotor end just fine. The two bearings I got for the tail rotor shaft were .5mm wider. That made the shaft run smoother. I got my bearings from National Precision Bearing in Seattle. The bearings were about $3.50 a piece. National Precision Bearing has a web site. I live local so I just called them up and walked in and got the bearings. I have an Eolo that is suffering from the same tail problems that my Hornet has. When I get home I will have to modify my Eolo. I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Shannon
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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hornet dave
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsburgh PA USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Ahh, we're just a bunch of nerds after all. haha.

I have a mostly stock hornet tail, but I drool whenever I see a ball bearing tail hub. I did put a 4'th bearing onto my tail driveshaft, but that was to cure a conical pinion problem I was having when I used an aluminum tailboom. Since I've done that mod, I have yet to get the conical pinion to skip at all. The extra bearing is about an inch behind the front bearing, the others are all in the stock location.

I also made some tail rotor blades out of 1/32" plywood, and they ended up being like 25% lighter than the stock ones. The goal was to reduce the force required to move the tail rotor bellcrank while at 2400 to 2500 rpm headspeed, and that goal was achieved. Also, being lighter, they help reduce vibrations.

I'm using a carbon output shaft and a stock tail hub.

Ahh well, I'd better get back to re-building my landing gear after last week's crash. And for anyone in the Pittsburgh or Reading, PA, area, I'd be more than happy to help sort out your tail rotors.
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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hornet dave
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsburgh PA USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Oh, greenhornet, I forgot to mention - rchover has a ball bearing kit for the eolo tail driveshaft. Or, if you have access to a lathe, it should be pretty easy to make some bushings yourself.
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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Deja_Vu
Senior Heliman
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		PXB,

I'm glad to hear it's not just me. I did the exact same thing you did. I bought the 3d combo from helihobby, to learn inverted and backwards stuff. I've seen videos of these things do that, and saw one live at the Vegas fun fly, so though it would be a great way to learn. I'm now about $1100-$1200 into mine, since I just got the metal head.

It's been a real nightmare trying to get this to do more than hover and forward flight. I went through the radio glitch thing and got that fixed by getting one of those micro antennaes. I also made a small platform out of carbon fiber that came from a busted tail fin off a 50 size to mount the reciever up and away from the engine.

My latest problem is it seems to randomly decide to bind up, which drops headspeed and causes the heli to drop about a foot. Since this only happens at speed I'm having a real problem figuring out where the trouble is. I would guess I've got the gear mesh wrong somewhere, or that the tail boom is flexing, which would mess the gear mesh up.

My wife even says the same thing...it's so cute.....If I wanted cute I could have got a picolo fun and been able to hover it around for a heck of a lot less money.

The positive thing is I think I'm finally getting close. I've managed to do a loop with it, but the cyclic response still is now where close to what I'd hoped.
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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mattijs
Senior Heliman
Location: Keerbergen Belgium

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		frustrating to see somany people getting angry at their hornet's, i really wanted to buy one...now it'l probably just be a piccolo
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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pxb
Heliman
Location: St. Peters, MO

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Deja_vu,

Glad to hear you seem to be getting close. Kind of sad when a forward loop is a major event for a 3D package (and that only after having almost doubled the initial cost of the package). Did you know that Heliproz has a Vigor package, with OS SXH, muffler and blades for less than the BASE cost of the Hornet package? That really makes me sick...

I haven't had any glitching for a while, I ran the antenna straight back staying clear of any other wires. I do have the micro antenna as part of my latest set of upgrade parts (why I am torturing myself like this, I don't know. I guess it's just the challenge now...)

Anyway, did you figure out the tail issues? Do you think you will be able to perform any of the most basic, foundation 3D manuevers like a backwards loop or roll?

Why can't anyone (the stores in particular) provide a sure fire solution to have a descent tail system? Is it that hard? (Answer must be "yes" since it is such a recurring problem).


mattijs,

My advice, until one of the stores is willing to explain exactly how to assemble a Hornet so that it works as advertised and stand behind what they sell, avoid this thing like the plague ---


HiroboEric - Where are you? If you have the answers, please HELP!!!!
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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airshares
Senior Heliman
Location: Camarillo, CA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hornet

I have not been happy with the hornet either. I have spent well over $1000 on just the heli not the radio and mine is still sitting on the table in parts. Mainly because Helihobby hasn't had the titanium main mast in stock for a month now. I've upgraded almost every piece of the tail and the thing still vibrates sometimes. The cyclic response sucked when i first flew it and actually was part due to my crash. I just learned that 2 weeks after i bought the turbine swash a newer version is out with better response. So while im whining lets talk about that too.......seems everytime i buy an upgrade.. an upgrade comes out that is better than that upgrade. The stores must know these are coming out in advance yet they fail to tell you about it while your buying the very soon to be obsolete parts. Anyway, i cant take myself to give up on the hornet either since ive seen that video of Eric Larson's hornet. I hope that guy gets a percentage of sales of hornets for that video since that is the best show of proof that the hornet actually flies well and probably the only thing keeping suckers like me buying these things...........maybe another $1,000 worth of upgraded, soon to be upgraded, upgrades will help
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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Deja_Vu
Senior Heliman
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		What really made me sick is when a guy came to the field last saturday with a fury extreme that he got with engine and gyro for around $1200. But I'd take a vigor any day too.

You should have seen the loop--very ugly so almost not even an accoplishment. I went to try one again today and now I'm back to glitching. I got it pointed nose up and then it all the sudden went full negative pitch full throttle. I got it back down no problem, but now I've pulled it all apart...again.

I gave up on trying to get the stock tail to run and got the metal tail hub from Helihobby. That seems to have fixed it so it is decent enough to fly...but of course was another upgrade. The tail was actually fine out of the box, but then I crashed once...not even hard enough to break the boom or skids, and spent 3 months trying to get the tail to work again. In all that time I tried about every recomended solution, without any luck. It still has a little wag but it's not enough that I'm going to worry about until I get it so I'm even comfortable with the heli to try backwards. (I do try backwards on my 50s)

I think I need to get my headspeed up, but with the Phoenix 10 in Governor mode I've got my throttle curve at 98% on my 9c already. Are people going over 100 to get the higher headspeeds?

At some point with enough money it better be able to do crazy 3d...I've seen one do a chaos so I know it can be done. And now I've dropped so much money in it I don't think I can just give up and say I'm done.

Finally I've got to get it to have some decent cyclic....anyone know if weighted blades would help or hinder that?
10-20-2003 Over year old.
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hornet dave
Key Veteran
Location: Pittsburgh PA USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I read somewhere that weighted blades will slow the response, especially with no bell input. correct me if i'm wrong, i'm hardly an expert on that subject. Higher headspeeds and lighter paddles are the trick.

As far as the p-10 governor goes, sure you can go to 140% if you want on the throttle, that will increase your headspeed as long as you have enough voltage to do the job. Eventually you will reach the point where the governor is essentially 'full throttle' and increasing the governor setting will not increase the headspeed anymore. You just have to remember that the governor setting is just an arbitrary value that corresponds to a certain motor speed. 100% on the governor setting does not necessarily correspond to the maximum headspeed for your particular application, that may occur at 40% or 120% or any other setting, depending on your battery voltage, motor constant (KV), and a few other things. If you cant get the headspeed you want, then go to a larger pinion. I think hackers need to be on the low governor mode, while razors like the high gov setting.

In my opinion, the ultimate tail rotor upgrade is a ball bearing hub from either microheli.com or deeteeenterprises.com. That's what's on my wish list for xmas. I've heard positive reviews about both of the units, both in terms of eliminating vibration and providing better tail rotor response. The aluminum tail gearboxes look nice, but I doubt they hold the bearings any better than the stock plastic unit.
10-21-2003 Over year old.
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