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Miniature Aircraft Whiplash & Fury 55

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Xcell Graphite 60 SE Pains

jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

Ok,
I purchased this heli last year.
It was Practically new, Never flown and had a YS 61.ST motor. I've posted pictures of it and talked about it on here before.
The Engine died on me on the 3rd flight about 50 feet up doing rolls and I had a hard Auto. Ever since, It has never flown good. Consistent vibration that will not go away.
Replaced Main Shaft, Spindle, Flybar, Tail Shaft. New Engine,OS 70 as (I hate the YS anyway), New Digital Servo on the tail and a New Gy520 Gyro as of last week.
Also converted to 6 volt with Lipo.

Main blades are tracked, It vibrates with them on and it vibrates with them off.
It vibrates at high gain and also low gain.
No Cracks in frames and also nothing loose. Gear mesh is solid on the tail gears as well as the main gear mesh to the direct drive.

Any ideas on where to go next, as this heli is turning into a nightmare.
This is not my only heli and I have no problem fixing, building adjusting, flying etc my .50 size raptor. I know they are not even remotely close but I think the Xcell is out of my Class of experience.
Im almost to the point of leaving it on MA's doorstep with a note pinned to it.

10-25-2011 Over year old.
kcordell

Elite Veteran

O Fallon, MO

Bolt on clutch or Uniball? One of the old tricks we used when lining up the motor/clutch assembly was to leave the motor mount bolts loose, start the model, let the head spin up a little bit then idle it back down and tighten the motor mount to get the best alignment.

Team Futaba, Team Thunder Tiger, Team Scorpion, YS Engines, VelTye

10-25-2011 Over year old.
jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

KCordell
Awesome suggestion - I might not have the engine lined up correctly. Uniball Style with the 2 inserts - had too be driven down on the inserts.
It was very hard to get them on as I had to tap the Starter shaft hard to get them to seat. The pins were bigger than the holes in the inserts when I pressed the new ones in.
I will try your suggestion and loosen the engine abit and see if that is the case.
Hopefully tomorrow before the snow flies!!

10-25-2011 Over year old.
Toadster25

Key Veteran

Iowa

Doesn't the start shaft have the clutch on it as part of it? Could that shaft be bent after your crash?

10-25-2011 Over year old.
jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

Toadster25 - It landed flat on the skids but hard enough when the tail hit that it snapped the Carbon boom at the back. Forgot to mention that. Boom has been replaced as well with metal. Torque tube was not hurt nat all. It is carbon and had no indications of any damage, scratches or bearing problems.
You are correct, The clutch is part of the Shaft. It could be bent. No Vibrations in Idle until the clutch would kick in and start spinning the shaft.
Great suggestions!
Ill post a video of it going into seizures so you can get an idea if I cannot find the culprit from these latest ideas.

Thank you

10-25-2011 Over year old.
junkpilot

Veteran

Alamogordo N.M.

60 SE Problems

It always amazes me when I hear of people having issues with the 60 SE. I must just be so used to them that nothing is new.
If you have a uniball clutch it is unlikely to have a bent shaft but check it anyway.If you still have an early bolt on clutch replace it regardless of what you find. Feathering spindles and mainshafts are cheap and easy to install so do it again straight from an unopened package"Some times a bent shaft gets slipped back into the package"
You stated you had a carbon torque tube and it was un damaged, Check the tube by holding it securly from each end and bowing an inch or two while rolling it between your fingers. If it is damaged you will feel a snap or crack as the damaged part goes by.
If you continue to have problems please P.M. me, I am always happy to help.
Junkpilot

When you fly JUNK it's hard to tell when you've crashed!

10-29-2011 Over year old.
flyin dan

Senior Heliman

Beloit Wi.

Look at the tail hub, may be bent where the tail blade holders bolt on, had to replace both of mine. remove the hub and chuck one end in a drill and rotate it, should not wobble at all on the other end. Tail output shaft was bent on one of mine also. Dan.

10-30-2011 Over year old.
jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

Thanks, All - I went in and checked the mentioned items with a fine tooth hammer.....
- Main Shaft is Straight. purchasing another for piece of mind.
- Tail Shaft is straight. purchasing another for piece of mind.
- Carbon Torque tube , no identified cracks.
- Tail Blade Hub. I put it in the drill as suggested and has an ever so slight wobble. I put in a drill bit, No Wobble.
I'm thinking this is probably the culprit. Its a noticeable wobble but no really excessive.
Waiting for new parts too arrive.

Crossing my fingers. Once they arrive and are installed. I will run it and let you know.
Thank you for the Information.

11-16-2011 Over year old.
budz

Senior Heliman

las vegas

when you intalled the motor/clutch, did you use feeler gauge to make sure the uniball clutch assy is dialed with the fan hub? this is very crucial when installing the motor.

team solo

11-16-2011 Over year old.
jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

I am not aware of the use of a feeler gauge. Can you please explain where I would go about using the gauge and what thickness.
I do not have a Book for the Heli - Just the plans.
The ball fits into the clutch very tight.

Appreciate any insights here!

11-16-2011 Over year old.
Thomas L Erb

Key Veteran

Alliance ohio

Just to clarify vib does it seem to bee as fast as engine speed or is it at head speed? This will be your best indicator to find problem

11-16-2011 Over year old.
jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

Thomas -I hope this answers your question.
The Vibrations are non existant at idle up to est 1/4 throttle. When starting higher revs for Hover, this is when the vibrating back and forth kicks in.
I would imagine that would be at head speed? After Clutch engages and head rpms. 1600 - 1700 roughly.

When in Idle up - It is a violent shake.

Thanks, Jeff

11-16-2011 Over year old.
Santiago P

rrProfessor

South West, Ohio

Are you using the old plastic head hub with the set screws to dial indicate the blade heights, the plastic one with no setscrew or a metal one?

If you use the one with set screws and they are off, it will invariable give you a heck of a head shake.


Opps, I missed the fact it is an SE,
I would still check static blade tracking to see if the head neck still square with the spindle.

Santiago

11-16-2011 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
rcnut

Key Veteran

Rockford, Illinois

jw637362,

One other thing to check...make sure there isn't any play in the bearing blocks. This could cause a bad shake. I had the top block go bad.

The head "could" be bent. I had this happen to my X-Cell SE once.

Uhmm...Did you tighten the 2 opposing screws at the bottom of the head? Yea...I did that once as well, had a violent shake.

"I love the smell of Nitro in the morning!"..."RIP Roman"

11-16-2011 Over year old.
Fortune Model Products

rrAdvertiser

Walls,Ms

Nice to see one of the old school helis still flying. I've had the opportunity to fly the Xcell 60 custom graphite(basically a Xcell 60 Graphie SE with a different canopy) a few times in the past....

Here is a couple things to check... The pins on the clutch are tight when they go into the engine fan vibration isolators. Put some liquid hand soap on the pins when you slide the clutch pins into the rubber isolators on the han hub. This will make assembly easier and allow the clutch and isolators to float when the engine is running. Make sure the engine has about 1mm clearance the bottom of the clutch and the top of the fan hub. Make sure the engine and clutch are parallel to each other when they're running. This is easy to chack and align by using a small bubble level on top of the clutch bell and one on top of the engine cooling fan fins. It was not uncommon on the Xcell 60 custom graphite to have to slot the engine mounting holes in the side frames to allow perfect alignment. Make sure the pinion and main gear has some play between these two gears. You should feel a small amount of play if you hold the main gear and move the clutch bell. One other thing that seems un-related but can cause great headaches is make sure after a hard landing like this that the bolts that go through the lower frames and then through the spacers and finally into the upper frames, are not bent. If they are, this forces the clutch pinion against the main gear and the two no longer have the correct gear mesh plus they are not parallel either. This also puts pressure back on the clutch and bearings and the whole thing vibrates when its running and will get worse as the RPM increases.

I hope this helps,

Mike Fortune
Fortune Model Products

11-16-2011 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
helitom

Senior Heliman

Pine Grove, Calif, USA

+1 on the bent frame bolts.

I have also hammered an SE hard enough to bend the fordard tail rotor drive shaft. I did that in spite of having the heavy duty forward tail rotor transmission upgrade installed and there was no visible damage to the crown gear. Took a while to find it because I went through most all that has been suggested here before I did a total disassembly to measure everything. That's when I found the shaft bent. I couldn't believe that I could bend a shaft that is pretty much in the middle of all the structure without having destroyed the structure.

The older I get, the fewer things seem worth waiting in line for.

11-16-2011 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
budz

Senior Heliman

las vegas

if you're looking at the heli from it's side, check the gap between the fan hub and the clutch driver. the front and rear part should be equal. this is where the feeler gauge comes to use. MA sells a special tool for this.

team solo

11-22-2011 Over year old.
jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

Thanks everyone for the great input on this. I have had limited time to pursue but should be back at it when parts arrive. Also I'll now order the feeler gauge Budz recommends for the fan hub. I think my engine could be canted a tad.
Im am reading this though!
I have not given up yet.

Appreciate the Ideas

11-22-2011 Over year old.
FastR1Red

Senior Heliman

Melbourne Australia

How did you go jw? Did you end up getting the feeler guages yet?
I still reckon this is one of the smoothest F3C birds in the air.

(With all the Pro bling of course)

11-26-2011 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
jw637362

Heliman

golden, colorado-usa

I contacted MA on the feeler gauge. Brian @ M.A stated it is no longer made and did not have any. But did say the feeler Gauge is .02 Thickness. I have metal rulers at .02. I measured the space and I am at .03 all around but the inserts are out and touching the clutch a atad. I am going to take apart and correct this.
Tail Hub is out of stock at the 4 Xcell dealers I know of.
The rest is pending product in stock and delivered. Ronlund, Heliproz, Heli Warehouse and MA are all out of stock on what I require at this time.
Thanks, Jeff

11-26-2011 Over year old.
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Xcell Graphite 60 SE Pains

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