RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - What RPM's are you guys running?

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > What RPM's are you guys running?

Ed_R
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What head speed are you guys running on these gassers these days? Can the newer 231's and G-26's handle say 1700? What about the old G-23?

08-05-2003 Over year old.

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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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I'm running the following:

1500, 1600, 1700 RPM (hover, idleup-1, idleup2).

I had no problem running these speeds with the G230PUH.

I'm also having no problems running these speeds with the G231PUH.

I could probably run even more if I wanted to. But the thing screams now at 1700.

---
Rich

08-05-2003 Over year old.

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Ed_R
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You don't think 1700's too much for the head?

08-05-2003 Over year old.

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AGRAV8
rrProfessor
Location: Mosquito Coast......Houston Texas

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not on the xcell

would worry if a benzine head with long blades were spooled up that high........

I've had mine up to 1750.....gets lively that high......

was hovering in the yard today @ 1250 or so.......but 1500-1550 is my usual rate of twist on 700's......

GOOD guy list-39, BAD guy list-0

08-05-2003 Over year old.

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Malorie
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Location: Paw squared, MI

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I am running 1650 in normal mode and 1750-1800 in idle up with a gear ratio of 6.43 to 1. I was regularly running the G23 at that and am now running the G26 at that. It doesn't seem to ming the RPMs.

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

08-05-2003 Over year old.

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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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1500, 1600, 1700

I got 3 speeds:

Hover, slow forward flight, nearby operation, 1500 rpms. Makes it quieter and "look" tamer. (Normal)

1600 for all around 3d stuff, tumbles, loops, spins, whatever. Works great and the engine handles it well with the 700mm blades. (IDUP1)

1700 for that extra speed - faster rolls, faster forward flight, and faster tumbles. Usually don't use this speed unless I am trying to show off! This is idle up 2. The engine may bog or lose some rpms if I apply too much cyclic and collective at the same time, but does fine if I manage it well and don't over control it. This is because of the 700mm blades and the 230 engine (old version). With 680mm blades never saw that, but its harder to turn larger blades and the faster the rpms the harder it is to maintain.

I've had it as high as 1750, but I see no good reason for it. In fact I am absolutely happy with the 1600 just dancing gracefully around the sky.

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G29 Big Bore Hanson, 2255+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 920+ flights
True Facts

08-05-2003 Over year old.

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BIGRCR
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Location: Easley, South Carolina

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My X-Cell Gas SE Custom flies at 1725 RPM while doing EXTREME 3-D using the G-231 and metal head. The motor is quite happy there and has no bad tendancies or shakes. I have experimented with 1600-1780 RPM and the G231/Gasser handles them all well. Of course the higher head speed livens up the performance but this bird will 3D at 1600 governed RPM. The higher RPM (high 1700's) do not seem to hurt things with the 6.43 ratio as long as your set-up allows the engine to stay LOADED and does not allow for overspeed conditions as you would possibly find in a slow descent with the wind. For this head speed it may be wise to move to a 15 toothed drive pinion (at 6:1 ratio) soon available from Miniature AC USA as this will comfortably allow for high 1700's or possibly higher head speeds.

The older G-23 usually will not handle much above 1600 RPM because of vibration. Bill Meader has had great success making these engine perform and can get more than the low 1600's out of them, possibly modified though.

Hope this helps!!

BIGRCR- John Garst

08-06-2003 Over year old.

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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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HI John,

I must have been doing something wrong. I was running 1700 rpm with my G230PUH with no vibes that I could detect.

Of course I do have a scale that will go down to a hundreth (.01) of a gram and always make my spinning parts balance within .01 gram, that may be part of it.

Of course, I'm still a relative newbie, so maybe I was doing something wrong!

---
Rich

08-06-2003 Over year old.

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Ed_R
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I should probably point out that my 'style' of flying would probably NOT be hard-core 3-D, but slower smoother cyclic rates and stuff. Thanks for the info, guys, I'm thinking 1700 is a nice round number that seems to work for almost any machine for almost anything.

(Credit to Nate Waddoups for that insight)

08-06-2003 Over year old.

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reefguy
Senior Heliman
Location: palmdale california

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head speed

hey people, i have a xcell gaser with g23, i read everybody posts, regarding their head speed, are you guys using a tach or the good old pair of experience ears to tell the head speed, reason i ask is, when i am hovering around 25 ft. the engine seem to gurgle every 7-8 seconds, is this normal or due to low head speed, how can one determine what their head speed is without a tach. thanks..

08-07-2003 Over year old.

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Malorie
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Location: Paw squared, MI

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I rely on experience and handling characteristics most of the time. When I feel picky, I use the tach. I am more concerned with keeping whatever head speed I'm at through all maneuvers without loosing it. I'm not hard core 3D either but I do like my heli to dig in and go when I ask it to.

Sounds like your low needle is just a tiny touch on the rich side.

Life's a journey, NOT a destination.

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BIGRCR
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Location: Easley, South Carolina

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I use the head speed setting in my GV-1 governor, I use the same RPM (by sound) when the engine is running non-governed.
Look for Billme (bill Meader) about your G-23 problem? He is here on RunRyder and knows the older G-23 inside and out!
BTW- I do not fly hard core 3D either, I just have had Henry Caldwell put the bird through the wringer on several occasions and even got it on tape. WOW!! What performance.

Later,

BIGRCR- John Garst

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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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Hi Reef,

If your engine does a minor gurgle every 8-10 seconds then you are tuned about right. This means you are not too lean. Depending on your oil ratio and other things you can reduce this, but you don't want to run too lean. As others say, billme is the expert on these things.

As to the head speed, I was hoping to purchase a MinAir SkyTach. But they are hard to find (everyone is out of stock and MinAir hasn't made a new batch in some time). While contemplating how I could find out what my head speed was (over speeding is very dangerous if you get to 2000 rpm), I thought more and more about the Futaba GV-1 governor.

This will allow me not only to know the head speed, but it will help to control over speeding. The ony dissadvantage I can see with the GV-1 is that you have to move it from heli-to-heli (or own a couple of them) and it doesn't help you when you are helping others to setup their helis.

So for me, the GV-1 is a win-win situation. I like it over the other governors because it will display the actual RPM. Some others will control RPM but you still need a tachometer of some sort to be sure you are commanding the desired head speed.

If you are under 2000 RPM then you are flying safe and you can simply pick a head speed which has the flight characteristics that you are happy with.

Does this make sense?

ReefGuy, do you SCUBA dive also?

---
Rich

08-07-2003 Over year old.

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Ed_R
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I'm thinking a GV-1 is now as neccesary as a heading hold gyro, even on a gasser.
I'm also thinking that Malorie has the right approach, in that the actual number isn't too important as long as it gives you the performance and stability you're looking for.
Looks like I might have to wait till the Fury Gassers are out.

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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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Now that I have the GV-1 and have been using it. I can see it's benefits.

I am able to set my head speed properly and be sure I wasn't too close to the terminal velocity of 2000 rpm. It's easy to do on the gasser!

Without the GV-1, I always seemed to not quite have the proper throttle curve and always had some overspeeding. For example, when doing negative pitch manuvers which need power would require one throttle curve and negative pitch manuvers which did not need power (such as a fast decent) needed a different throttle curve. It never seemed perfect.

Yes, with a radio such as the 9ZAP I can switch many conditions in and out to compensate for this, but it was never perfect.

Of course, I'm still a very newbie when it comes to aerobatics (oops, they call it 3D now) and I'm still learning how to setup a machine (aren't we all). But I could never figure out how to get this balanced.

With the GV-1 it all seemed to come together, for me at least! I get the power when I need it and no significant overspeeding to speak of.

I have now started to fine tune my throttle curves. I can toggle the GV-1 on and off and see how my 'backup' throttle curve is at any particular flight condition.

To me, this is a great setup tool. Even if I had a MinAir 'AirTach', I would be at the mercy of finding a third party to help me with it. Try to train them on what to watch for and when. Then interpret their results. With the GV-1 I am in control.

The heading hold gyro was an equally wonderful thing! I just recently switched from a standard Piezo gyro (G501) to a heading hold unit (Futaba GY401) each with their reccomended servo. What a difference!! With the piezo I was forever trying to get my revo up/down correct for each of the flight modes. It seemed to always need a bit of fine tuning. With the GY401 I just seem to have one less thing to worry about.

If you haven't spent the money yet, go for the new Fury Tempest Gasser (whatever they will call it) if you can wait! Or just spend the money now and fly!

I have seen the Fury Tempest mechanics in person while visiting MinAir and it is very impressive! I'd love to have one!

---
Rich

08-07-2003 Over year old.

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Ed_R
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My only issues with teh Fury gasser will be the high parts count and whether it's 140 degree CCPM or 120 CCPM. My radio only does 90 and 120.

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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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I can't comment on the parts count not owning a tempest.

But as to the mixing, if your radio is limited and you don't want to change it, what is the CCPM setup on the current Tempest? I would think the gasser would be the same as MinAir seems to share common things which work well between their different versions of their machines.

If the current Tempest is 120 then you'll probably be safe. Their web site doesn't list this detail. Or if it does, I can't find it.

---
Rich

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Ed_R
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I've owned an Xcell graphite gasser before, they fly very well and that's what I'm looking at getting again, but I clearly recall that the high parts count, plus al the fun upgrades, means that a crash is even MORE expensive than it normally would be and the recovery time can be longer. I'm just speaking from my own personal experience- it was much easier repairing the Z230 than the XCell, and it cost about two thirds less to fix too!

My radio is a 10-SX, the precursor to the 10SXII, which was the precursor to the 10X. I know it can do CCPM, I just don't remember the specifics.
Never having seen a Fury machine up close, I have no idea what the CCPM offest is. I think it will be 120 though, only the JR is 140, right?

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BIGRCR
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Location: Easley, South Carolina

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Yes, 120 degree CCPM control.

ImRich, you can go a long way toward getting rid of the overspeeding by setting up your throttle AND collective curves to where they are calibrated to each other working off of center stick with all control horns, cranks, swash plate, blade grips (@zero), servo horns,etc. at neutral (90 degrees) and working from center stick. More than likely you won't even run zero pitch at center stick AFTER you have it set up around center(zero) in the radio. I don't- and no, I don't really know what it is- probably around 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 degrees.This helps to keep the helicopter loaded at all times and is not even noticed (not being zero at center). As I understand, Jason Krause himself does not set up a 3D machine for dead zero at center, center is done more by feel and only is concerned with top and bottom pitch. With everything set up from center so that the transmitter knows the center=zero/mid, the radio has an easier time making the mixes neccessary to fly the helicopter correctly.

Set the throttle opening to where at 100% and 100% ends (low and high stick) ATV at 100% each, the throttle is 100% open and 100% closed respectively. Go in or out on the servo horn (even go to a small horn if necc.) so that your ATV's are at or as near as you can possibly get them to 100% each way. Hover throttle opening will then be around 36-42 % ATV usually.

Now as I fly my gasser, I can hardly tell the difference between governed and non governed flight, and this is mostly in a difference in tail feel. BTW- ungoverned works better after it is set up correctly!! It has more throttle response and stays loaded better.
Thanks again BillMe!!

Later,

BIGRCR- John Garst

08-08-2003 Over year old.

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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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John,

Thanks! I still have a lot to learn and I am learning fast. Right now my machine is setup better than I can fly.

I only wish I had someone that knew what they were doing (meaning more than I do) close by. The only help I get these days is right here on RR.

I do have my mechanical setup for zero or center mechanics with 90 degree pushrods etc.

I'm still refining my radio setup though. I have to go back and re-do my servo output wheels to get my ATVs back to 100. On updating my '96 vintage gas Xcell, I recently added MinAir's 'new' push-pull system for pitch and collective. What a mistake, I should have gone with the 'older system as it it more adjustable! So instead of using their new wheel overlays, which I would have expected to have the proper throw, I have to make my own wheels again!

As to the 'upgrades', I don't mind! How many other manufacturers let you upgrade instead of simply coming out with a new non-compatible model?

---
Rich

08-08-2003 Over year old.

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > What RPM's are you guys running?

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