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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > need help starting zenoah 231
 
 
rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Hey guys I need help. I have a gasser heli with the zenoah 231 engine. I was hovering happily when suddenly i noticed the rpms go down. I landed the heli safely and the engine slowly died as soon as I landed. It did not run out of fuel i still had 3/4 tank full when this happened. I cant start the engine now and need help. this is what i have checked so far.

the carburetor seems to be fine and fuel is getting to the engine. I know this because after I try to start the engine and crank it a few times I then remove the spark plug and its wet with fuel.

I have checked the spark plug and it does spark, however very minimal spark with the spark plug removed.

I have removed the coil and cleaned the coil where it makes contact with the magnets.

I have double, triple checked the high and low speed needles and both are at 1 3/8 turns open.

I dont know what else to try....need help.....thanks hope to get some input...
11-06-2009 03:54 PM
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j.8
Veteran
Location: Denmark

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Hi

Quote 
hovering happily when suddenly i noticed the rpms go down

It sounds like your engien was to hot.

Put in a new spark plug, and do not use a govenor,
when ajusting the needles, and during the breakin periode.

Run it rich, so that you get a 4 stroke note every 10 second,
(during hover) and only lean needles when is starts 4 stroking more often, and only so that you`ll get that 4 stroke every 10 second again.

Regards Bo
11-06-2009 04:06 PM
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lejon
Senior Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

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for starters

Did you break this engine in.
What kind and how much oil are you using.
Take the muffler off and look at the piston and cylinder wall, are they clean or do they look scratched / scored? Does it look like there is anything that may have come loose?

Also check the red wire from the coil to make sure it is connected. Black wire (gnd) is for killing the motor so make sure it is not connected or touching.

Pics will help.

Lejon
11-06-2009 04:08 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
this is a not a new engine and has been broken in by the previous owner...I am using zenoah oil mixture at 6 oz per gallon of fuel...I removed the carburetor and the cylinder looks ok..it has a few scratches but to me it look ok...as for broken parts..I pull on the pull start and the piston seems to work normal...
the red wire is connected and the black wire is completely isolated and covered....im not sure what im suppose to listen to 4 stroke every ten seconds...can you chime in a little more?
11-06-2009 04:28 PM
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Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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Quote 
I removed the carburetor and the cylinder looks ok..it has a few scratches but to me it look ok...as for broken parts..I pull on the pull start and the piston seems to work

You really need too pull the muffler and check the piston on the exhaust side.

At 1 3/8 turns out on both you could have run it lean

I only like to fly gassed up
11-06-2009 04:53 PM
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j.8
Veteran
Location: Denmark

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Hi

I thought it was a new engien, my mistake.

On a broking in engien you don`t want a 4 stroke every 10 second,
all the time when it`s warmed up, but you can ajust the needles so that is 4S every 10 second and then dissapeares when the engien is warmed up

If you can`t hear the engien 4 stroking, you can se it,
the tail will wag to one side, every time it 4 strokes,
due to the loss of momentum, and the wag will be to the
opposite side as the rotor direction

6 oz pr gallon is close to 5 % personally I think
it`s alot of oil, I use 2 % but you would have to be carefull
not to run an engien lean with a 2% mix.
Some people mix the oil content so that the plug get`s
a certain colour, (do a search on spark plug colour)

Actually if you use to much oil, you`ll have to lean the
needles to much, to get a clean engien sound, but a lean setting
will heat the engien to much.

And from your discription it sounds as if the engien was getting
to hot, so start by riching the needles.

Oil do not cool anything in a 2 stroke gasser engien,
well if you don`t use any oil at all, you`ll have a lot of
friction witch will kill the engien, due to the heat
but it don`t have the same cooling effect like on a
methanol/nitro engien.

Oil in theise engiens have 2 funktions
1 lubicant
2 it preserves the engien, when it`s not beeing used

Have you tried with a new spark plug ?

Regards Bo
11-06-2009 05:08 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
thanks Bo,

I will try a new spark plug and try to get it started and run it rich..

Thansk everyone that responded...I will check back again if I have trouble with a new spark plug in...

One last thing...If I did run it hot..does that mean it wont ever start again? ...If i remove the muffler what do I check for? scratched piston? what does it mean?

Thanks again...
11-06-2009 05:37 PM
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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Its more likely toast

If you see a few scratches on the intake side, I'm willing the bet the exhaust side is gouged out with scoring.

Before you spend any more time on it, take the muffler off and look at the piston there. If you see up and down lines in the piston then that's why it won't start you're going to need a new piston, ring and cylinder.

If so contact Al at Bhhanson. I sent him a 231 motor that he upgraded to a G26 for me and he's got my old 231 cylinder and piston which is in good shape - it was my spare motor. I'm sure he can give you a deal on that if you need it.

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights
11-06-2009 06:36 PM
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j.8
Veteran
Location: Denmark

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Hi rctrooper1

Quote 
One last thing...If I did run it hot..does that mean it wont ever start again? ...If i remove the muffler what do I check for? scratched piston? what does it mean?

If you take of the muffler, and you can se scratch marks, in
the same direction as the piston moves, it means that the
engien topend/piston has been hot enough/expand so that there
have been contack btween the two parts.
But check that there are no scratch marks on the piston ring,
thats not good.
EDIT look post above

If you can take a picture of it, with the muffler of
it would be good.

A sparkplug picture would be good as well

The low needle are very sensitive, some times it only
takes a screwdriver blade width, to get it tuned correctly.

Regards Bo
11-06-2009 06:52 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

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ok...Thanks again..I will take some pics and post them...I hope its not ruined....
11-06-2009 07:02 PM
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Malc1
Veteran
Location: EVESHAM,UK

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If your engine is anything like mine was while trying to break it in - its toast





A Hanson G26 3D Max.
11-06-2009 07:09 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Im afraid its toast....See for yourself and let me know...I guess running the needles at 1 3/8 turns is too lean?

Here are the pics...

11-06-2009 08:30 PM
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Malc1
Veteran
Location: EVESHAM,UK

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Looks like it to me.
11-06-2009 08:43 PM
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bwarkent
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston Tx

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With that much oil I would never expect a piston to look like that with a needle at 1 3/8 (high and low), even with an air leak. Maybe carb insulator leak AND improper throttle/pitch curves/setup? Which heli, which blades, what gear ratio, what head speed at hover?
11-06-2009 08:52 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Bwarkent,

This is a used heli that i traded..Its a raptor90 conversion with zenoah 231..It has 680 main blades and the gears are 14tooth and 94..I believe..as far as the head speed I really dont know what it was..I do know that it was hovering at about 1/4 stick on the throttle...any input
11-06-2009 09:15 PM
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Chris Bergen
Elite Veteran
Location: location

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Ouch.....

Even with 6 oz of oil, running an engine too hot( not enough cooling) can cause this. Was the standard Raptor fan used in the conversion, or was something else grafted on?

It would be good to know headspeeds in this case, too high... trouble, too low....trouble as well...

That's a 6.71 ratio. A 1400 HS is only 9,394 on the motor...2000 HS is 13,420....

1 3/8 turns on the needles SHOULD have been pretty close, but an air leak can CERTAINLY cause the engine to still be lean, get hot, score the piston, and stop running...

Do you have a side/3/4 view of the red insulator block? Look at the gasket under the block for deformity....

The plug certainly looks well used, possibly even been cleaned at one time....

Chris Bergen
11-06-2009 10:09 PM
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Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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Looks like burnt toast, that’s why you needed to remove the muffler, hovering at ¼ stick suggests the curves were all wrong

Is it possible to take a picture of the fan and clutch set up?

I only like to fly gassed up
11-06-2009 10:59 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Thanks Chris,

As far as the cooling fan, It does not have the raptor 90 fan. It has a miniature aircraft xcell cooling fan. The previous owner was flying the bird and just removed the receiver and battery when i took it. I am very new at gasser heli and thought it was a good trade to begin with this one. I suppose I need to educate myself with headspeeds and learn how read them. I checked the gasket and it looks ok...From the time I started to fly it, it was one tank and a half when it died on me....It did seem akward that it was hovering at 25% stick, but thought if had too much pitch on the mains..
11-06-2009 11:04 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

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I will take some pics of the fan and engine as it is on the bird now. I just read last nite that throttle curves are not the same for gassers and nitros....What is a good set up to begin with?
11-06-2009 11:07 PM
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rctrooper1
New Heliman
Location: Del Rio, Texas

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Here are some more pics...

11-06-2009 11:23 PM
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > need help starting zenoah 231
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