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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 How to get correct length of linkage rod to collective control arm
 
 
Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I'm helping a friend set up his Raptor 50 and we kept having issues with the collective control arm. For max travel with the swash, we kept getting numbers like 65% in the radio for one direction, and 105% in the other. We would reset the servo horn, try again, and then get 95 and 60!

We tried changing the length of the ball link rod, and we messed that up too.

Then this morning with a clear mind I realized something:

Last night I was primarily focused on one thing – making sure that the servo arm was 90 degrees to the control link, but equally important for what we were doing is making sure that the length of the control arm was exactly right.

For example: Let’s say we were only going to shoot for 5 degrees of pos and neg collective pitch. If that were the case, then we would have plenty of available travel, and the only critical thing to get even throw (+5 deg and -5 deg) would be to have the servo horn at 90 deg to the control link. Then if it were perfect, the travel adjust in the radio would both be the same value. The bottom line is that the length of the control rod would not be critical.

If it was a bit short, the swash would be higher, but we would still get +/- 5 degrees of travel, and if the length was too long, the swash would be lower, but we would still get our +/- 5 degrees of travel.

HOWEVER, we are trying to get max travel out of the swash. In that case, the servo horn has to be 90 degrees, and the control rod has to be the correct length! If either one is off, then we would see issues like seeing 70% in the radio in one direction and 100% in the other!

Bottom line is, how do I determine what the correct length should be for that control rod??? If we get the length correct, and then get close with the 90 degrees, then we can make small adjustments to the sub-trim and get even numbers in the radio for travel adjust.

So what is the trick for determining the correct length for this control rod?


Thanks guys...

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
Hope she doesn't outfly me soon!
11-03-2009 05:34 PM
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Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Oh I forgot to mention:

He has a metal after market Collective Control Arm with only one position (one ball link position) for the control rod.

It does not have the "beginner" position and the "Intermediate" position like in the manual for the stock one.

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
Hope she doesn't outfly me soon!
11-03-2009 05:42 PM
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Texmech
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston,TX

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Check the Manual?

Theres a page in the Manual that gives all the Linkage lengths. Have you seen that? and also there are some slight differences between the Titan SE and the V2 lenghths. Reset all your subtrims before you do anything.

Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, experience usually comes from bad judgment.
11-03-2009 07:34 PM
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Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yes - we checked the manual.

But like I said, this was a metal aftermarket collective control arm and it only has one position, so not sure at all what length to use as a starting point...

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
Hope she doesn't outfly me soon!
11-03-2009 07:39 PM
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Heli 770
rrProfessor
Location: Lemon Grove, Ca. USA.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Start with the 3D length or advanced flyer.
11-03-2009 08:09 PM
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Texmech
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston,TX

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Very detailed description of this subject on this site. http://myraptor.net/r50V2/r50v2_collective_linkage.html
Hope it helps.
Also Raptortechnique.com has an artical on this, which shows a metal aftermarket Collective lever in the description.
Maybe try posting a picture of your Collective lever and someone might join in and give you a starting point. I would just start from the manual lengths and work you way up.

Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, experience usually comes from bad judgment.
11-03-2009 08:14 PM
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Thumpernator
Senior Heliman
Location: Senoia, Georgia, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Can't help ya with the exact length, but wanted to show you a tool that is a great help when setting up a Raptor.



The swashplate leveler holds the swash in the exact "0" position for pitch, roll, and collective. My brother made this tool for me, but I believe they are available commercially. Maybe someone else knows of a source.

Not only does this tool make it a snap for initial setup, but it's also good for the rebuild after the crash.

Dave
Crashing is not authorized.
11-03-2009 08:59 PM
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Peefor
Veteran
Location: St Albans UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
color=blue]So what is the trick for determining the correct length for this control rod?[/color]

You need the servo horn at 90 deg to the operating pushrod. You then need to find the central position of the pivot in the slot in the frames. I made the tool shown on the left, which sits on top of the flat section of frame under the collective arm. With the arm fully up (and down in the frame slot) the tool is adjusted until it just slides under the collective arm. Distance is measured. Tool removed and arm dropped down (and moved to the top of frame slot) and distance measured...or guestimated anyway.

Take second distance away from first measurement and that is the total travel in the frame slot. The little square tool is then set to exactly half the distance. That is placed under the collective arm which then positions the swash on the mainshaft, at it's half-way point. Tool 2 was then made to conform to the distance between the underneath of the swash and the mainshaft retaining collar.

When the swash sits on tool 2 it is exactly half-way along it's mainshaft travel and all the links can be adjusted accordingly. Lastly just adjust the collective/servo pushrod to suit the set-up.

Pete

11-03-2009 08:59 PM
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S Bell
Senior Heliman
Location: Nova Scotia Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		With a normal radio you can always acquire equal ATV using the servo horn position on the servo spline and the rod length. Maybe you have something squirrely with the pitch curve as it needs to be 100/100 at both the top and bottom points plus you need to be switched there when checking. Center point on the pitch curve must be 50% for the arm to be where it should at 90 degrees with the collective stick at half.

You don't need any fancy jigs or even a ruler to realize a proper collective setup with a raptor.

When you check the rod length do so with it detached at one end and check top and bottom, make fine ATV adjust to balance the geometric error in the servo spline/arm spline.

The rod length depends on the servo location, servo brand, servo rez, servo arm length and desired EPA. Any ball park rod length can be modified to full no bind travel with equal ATV so long as the servo arm is long enough.

Raptors are everywhere
11-03-2009 09:17 PM
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Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Texmech,

Quote 
Also Raptortechnique.com has an artical on this, which shows a metal aftermarket Collective lever in the description.

I found some info in Raptor Technique on the collective arm, but it was the stock arm.

Can you post a link to the article you are talking about?

Thanks.

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
Hope she doesn't outfly me soon!
11-03-2009 10:02 PM
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Texmech
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston,TX

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Sure

It's not much, but it talks a little about the upgrade.
http://www.raptortechnique.com/upgradeparts.htm

Good judgment comes from experience. Unfortunately, experience usually comes from bad judgment.
11-03-2009 10:11 PM
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cdrking
Elite Veteran
Location: Seattle

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Do you have the collective servo reversed? The manual says to run them one way and most run them reversed according to the manual. I didn't have the single arm like yours but I used to reverse the servo on all my Raptor 50's. It gives a much better geometry.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.
11-03-2009 10:15 PM
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jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I like this setup from Mike - the 3D setup portion. Simple and works for me. Although the writeup that Girard did (linked above, myraptor.net) is *very* good and comprehensive. I do flip the collective servo over so the servo points to the rear.

http://www.raptortechnique.com/pitchalign.htm



.. P-gas, T700, V50c/u, R50T, T4/250 and a Cricket ..
11-04-2009 12:27 AM
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Gary H
Senior Heliman
Location: Minnesota USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Rockohaulic take that blasted after market stuff off and go with what was made for the Raptor, make it easy on yourself, that after market junk doesn`t make it fly any better, just more problems sometimes. Then let your buddy enjoy his Heli.

Gary H
11-04-2009 01:04 AM
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Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Rockohaulic take that blasted after market stuff off and go with what was made for the Raptor, make it easy on yourself, that after market junk doesn`t make it fly any better, just more problems sometimes. Then go and enjoy your Heli.

What part of...

Quote 
I'm helping a friend set up his Raptor 50

Did you not understand???

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
Hope she doesn't outfly me soon!
11-04-2009 01:11 AM
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Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		cdrking,

Quote 
Do you have the collective servo reversed? The manual says to run them one way and most run them reversed according to the manual. I didn't have the single arm like yours but I used to reverse the servo on all my Raptor 50's. It gives a much better geometry.

Raptor Technique specifically says to run the servo with the spline to the right and the servo horn pointed forward. They have a neat little drawing on why this is better for geometry.

Why would so many people change this if they have good justifications to run it their way???

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
Hope she doesn't outfly me soon!
11-04-2009 01:14 AM
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cdrking
Elite Veteran
Location: Seattle

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		There's no doubt that Raptor Technique has excellent info. The only reason I ran mine opposite according to the manual is I liked having 90 degree geometry. I never compared the two different ways as far as flying qualities. It worked for me some may not like it.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.
11-04-2009 01:21 AM
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GREYEAGLE
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Rock

This wouldn't happen to be a Futaba ? would it ? I run the same set up on my Titian. Ran into the same. Let me know.

greyeagle
11-04-2009 01:59 AM
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Rockohaulic
Elite Veteran
Location: Valencia, CA, USA, 3rd Rock from the Sun

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		No its a JR 10X radio.

I know it's a combo of not having the servo horn at 90 deg and the link is the wrong length

I got a helicopter for my girlfriend,
Hope she doesn't outfly me soon!
11-04-2009 04:42 PM
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BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Orange Park FL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Flipping the collective servo is pretty common and results in excellent geometry, he must have changed his tune because RT is where I first learned it.

Like Stephen said, setting up a Raptor isn't rocket science.

Oh.....the metal arm duplicates the plastic pitch arm but its shorter and does away with the beginner position, the 3D position as the same as the stock plastic arm with the ball moved to the rear position.


AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
11-04-2009 07:13 PM
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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 How to get correct length of linkage rod to collective control arm
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