RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - Flybarless questions

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Synergy R/C Synergy N9 > Flybarless questions

pwood
Key Veteran
Location: Dubai - UAE

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Hi guys

I am toying with converting my N9 to flybarless.

I have read alot of the threads here on RR. It seems that the big issue is way too much blade movement.....

The ´fix´ seems to be to use shorter servo arms ( about 10mm ), 1:1 bell cranks and longer arms on the grips....do you need all of these???? or would one of the 3 be enough?

The 1:1 bell cranks seems like lots of work and a swap back to a flybar system would leave a mess....

The 10mm servo arms seems to have binding issues. Is this true???

So that leaves the longer armed blade grips. Could you do this on its own??? How far from the centre would they need to be to leave the heli stock and just convert the grips???? (plus swash clamp)

Any help would be appreciated.

I have Hyper grips on my N9 at the moment. To put a long ball link on the carbon plate would probably not be good as the carbon would flex. A short ball, and a spacer plate between the carbon plate and ali grip would probably be better?? any thoughts???

Hirobo style grip arm would probably be a better setup. Has anyone tried it??

Regards
Paul

11-03-2009 06:51 AM

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Foamy Love
Senior Heliman
Location: Shelby Township, MI

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All of my flybarless N9s (3 of them to date) have been built with the Fueled by Hate head and I put the ball on the servo arm out a 10mm. They flew great.

Adam Hartzell

11-03-2009 11:24 AM

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baddynergy
Elite Veteran
Location: valencia, ca- usa

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Quote
The 10mm servo arms seems to have binding issues. Is this true???

NO, they dont bind. But it is not the optimum geometry for the Vbar. Mine flies extremely well with this set up.

Quote
The 1:1 bell cranks seems like lots of work and a swap back to a flybar system would leave a mess

The 1:1 bellcranks with stock length servo arms is the optimum geopmetry. I have not done this step with mine

Quote
So that leaves the longer armed blade grips. Could you do this on its own??? How far from the centre would they need to be to leave the heli stock and just convert the grips???? (plus swash clamp

No it should not be done on its own. You need either the 10mm servo arms or the 1:1 bell cranks.
You must also do this step, it needs the arms farther from mainshaft center for geometry. If I recall correctly they ball links should be 30mm from center to center with main shaft (Total distance would be 60mm from ball lnk to ball link).

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11-04-2009 03:24 AM

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russ
Senior Heliman
Location: england

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i have a hyper swash and normal blade grips can this be changed to flybarless or do i need new head cheers

russ

11-04-2009 08:19 AM

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whaleboy
Heliman
Location: Los Angeles, CA

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Hello...

I have an N9, but its my sole flybarred heli. It seemed a pain to convert to flybarless, as the geometry isn't easily adjusted. I was considering just selling it and getting another 90, one that is better suited to FBL.

However, I'd like to know exactly what needs done to the N9 to give it optimal geometry for FBL. I'm also a little nervous about the FBL head on the N9... dosn't seem like I have a lot of choices. The Bonta head seems to be the popular choice, but I keep hearing he's no longer making them, then maybe he is, etc. I'd like a head that I know I can get replacement parts that are in stock.

What other head options are there? I don't trust the RJX (?) head. Can I have the servo connections at 13mm and mod the bell cranks to 1:1 and bring them in and have optimal (or at least close) geometry?

Thanks

-David

11-04-2009 07:55 PM

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thenewguy
Key Veteran
Location: Corvallis, Oregon Where there is liquid sunshine!

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Guys,

You only have to move the balls on the servo arms to 10mm.
Make sure that the flybarless head(which ever one you choose) has balls spaces 31mm out from the center of the head.

I believe 3DX makes a head also, or is in the process of making one for a 90 size.

That is it, then follow the instructions on set up from the manufacture of what ever flybarless unit you decide.

I run the V-bar with a Bonta head on my Synergy. I'm getting close to 12/12 degrees of pitch with no binding.

Chris

11-04-2009 10:57 PM

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whaleboy
Heliman
Location: Los Angeles, CA

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Quote
run the V-bar with a Bonta head on my Synergy. I'm getting close to 12/12 degrees of pitch with no binding.

How much cyclic do you have and what is your collective set to in the Vbar software?

Just Curious. As far as binding, I have my servo arms at 13mm and I had to grind out extra from the anti rotation guide and also had to take a chunk out or the servo supports to keep the elevator rod from bending on the support. I haven't tried it yet, so I'm not sure, but if I had trouble with 13mm, 10mm would be worse.

Not sure why I had issues at 13mm...

-David

11-05-2009 04:54 AM

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pwood
Key Veteran
Location: Dubai - UAE

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Hi guys

Thanks for all the replies.

I would like to leave the servo arms and bell cranks as they are and just do some mods to the head...... just because i am lazy.

If the balls on the blade grips are far enough out, it should be fine, right ????

So, if i do the setup without a V-Bar, and i set the swash mix to 60,60,60 and can get +12/-12 on the pitch, would this be OK ????

Regards
Paul

11-05-2009 06:16 AM

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Chuckie
Key Veteran
Location: Crofton Maryland, MHA member

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1:1.2 is the optimum bell crank ratio with the Bonta FBH head in the N9 and the vbar. You just get enough throw at 1:1 with 16mm servo arms but then you have other issues the arms hitting each other, the anti rotation guide or the servos are spaced out too close to the canopy.

Here is how Bart and I did our conversions. I have pics in my gallery.
http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t518699p1/

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11-05-2009 02:52 PM

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pwood
Key Veteran
Location: Dubai - UAE

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Hi guys

Thanks for all the info.

Can i go back to basics...... i must be a real dumb a$$.....

How does the VBar setup work, what sort of values do you set for pitch and cyclic?

Are they like the swash menu on a Tx, where 60,60,60 are the 'ideal' ?

With an 'ideal' VBar setup, what % servo movement is used with a full pitch movement and cyclic movement?

Using longer servo arms will increase the bell crank rotation. The shorter bell crank outputs will decrease the swash movement..... isn't it all about the same as doing nothing???

Regards
Paul

11-05-2009 06:02 PM

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Ironhide
Senior Heliman
Location: dexter mi us

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V-bar

Jump over here and check out the WIKI . Read alot .Lots to learn .

11-05-2009 06:52 PM

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whaleboy
Heliman
Location: Los Angeles, CA

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Can someone tell me the distance from the center shaft to the ball center on the FBH head? I've been looking, and it seems the only head available at the moment is the RJX, and I've heard too many horror stories to trust it. I don't see the 3dx head listed anywhere anymore, and the FBH Bonta head is out of stock, even at his own site. I've heard he's not making them any more?

Can I mod the Hyper head I have easily? Like Pwood, I don't trust just adding an extension to the ball, as the stress on the carbon arms would likely cause them to start delaminating.

Any other head options that are actually available (and will be in the future for possible crash repair)?

Thanks

-David

11-05-2009 10:11 PM

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Ironhide
Senior Heliman
Location: dexter mi us

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The correct spacing is 32mm from center of headblock to center of ball .

You guys don't have to use a FBL head . I have a RJX 50 also and the head on it is just fine . I actually stuffed my stock Synergy orings from the head block to fix a head whobble on it .

Many of us are modding stock heads . I found it to be much cheaper for me . I put that coin else where . You can use Kasama grips and your stock head block and get these 10mm standoffs that Greger found that screw right in . Or double the carbon plates on the Hyper grips and use some spacers .

And the Bart and Chuckie bellcrank mod flys great !! It really doesn't take that long to mod . The juice is worth the squeeze!!!

11-05-2009 11:50 PM

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whaleboy
Heliman
Location: Los Angeles, CA

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Oh, and just out of curiosity, those of you with the Vbar, what preset did you start with, and how much software tweaking was required to get it to fly to your satisfaction?

Thanks

-David

11-06-2009 05:01 AM

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pwood
Key Veteran
Location: Dubai - UAE

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Hi guys

Thanks, Ironhide, for the link to the WIKI stuff. Alot of questions answered.....I also like your idea of doubling up the Hyper Grip carbon plate with a spacer behind it.

From looking at the TRex 700 Mikado conversion, longer arms on the grips and a shorter ball on the swash is all that is needed.

I will see if i can get my Hyper grips up to 31mm. This would make it the same as the Logo600.

Doy you guys think there will be an issue if the ball on the grips points away from the spindle as apposed to parallel with the spindle. With regards to the ball link popping off at extreme angles. At worst case, it would be 12 deg for collective and 8 for cyclic. 20 or maybe 22 degrees on a ball link is this OK?

Thanks again. I am learning a lot. I will soon need to spend a lot...... the Vbar is not cheep. Is the Field controller really needed?

How often do you need to tweak the setup. I am happy to take my laptop out for a while. I have done this for my Spartan gyros.....

Regards
Paul

11-06-2009 05:53 AM

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Chuckie
Key Veteran
Location: Crofton Maryland, MHA member

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Quote
what sort of values do you set for pitch and cyclic?

Same for flybar +-12 to +-14 for collective. Cyclic is different as you let vbar control the max

Quote
Are they like the swash menu on a Tx, where 60,60,60 are the 'ideal' ?

As the vbar wiki site shows you don't use CCPM in the radio. You setup one to one like a mechanical heli. Vbar has a calibration menu where you set center and +-100% throws.

Quote
With an 'ideal' VBar setup, what % servo movement is used with a full pitch movement and cyclic movement? Using longer servo arms will increase the bell crank rotation. The shorter bell crank outputs will decrease the swash movement..... isn't it all about the same as doing nothing???

When you remove the flybar and mixer you will have too much throw from the servos hence the reason to reduce the servo arms to 10mm. This causes some issues with binding on the N9 so the alternative is to reduce the bell crank mechanical advantage so the servo arm of 15 or 16mm can be used. We modeled these changes in an attempt to copy the setup used in the Logo 600. There are limits on bell crank size as you can only drill one place in front of the swash and that is were the anti rotation guide is mounted. With the vbar at 80 collective common the logo 600 has +-11 collective and with the reduced bell crank and 16mm servo arms the N9 has about the same.

Quote
Oh, and just out of curiosity, those of you with the Vbar, what preset did you start with, and how much software tweaking was required to get it to fly to your satisfaction?

Definitely use the Logo 600 as the preset to start with. There are some settings that are hidden and the new 4.0 user interface cannot access them. In the beginning you may be doing a lot of tweaking as you are getting used to having the vbar do a lot of the flying for you but after you get to understand what each parameter does not much additional tweaking is needed.

The big thing with the vbar is you need to get the gyro mount solid and you might have to play with the amount and type of gyro tape. Most of the time I've been recommending using the metal spartan plate in between two pieces of futaba gyro tape. The heli doesn't sit right in a hover and flys a little odd if a lot of engine vibration upsets the vbar sensor. If you use a safety strap around the gyro don't over tighten it as the heli will not hover well at all.

Charles

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11-07-2009 05:59 PM

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Synergy R/C Synergy N9 > Flybarless questions

whaleboy
Heliman
Location: Los Angeles, CA

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Thanks for the info. I currently have 2 sk360 helis (trex 450 and 500) and 2 vbar'd helis (logo500 and trex 600N). They fly from ok (t500) to absolutely amazing (Logo500). The 600N is somewhere in between and I'm still messing with it. I Was running it with radix blades, but just ordered some Edge FBL blades to try. I hate tweaking the software because when its not flying well, I can never figure out what settings I should be changing and usually just end up chasing my tail. I much prefer to plug it in and have it just work, like the logo, no tweaking at all and flies like a dream.

This is why I was leaning toward just getting a 700 with the Mikado conversion and hopefully the 700 preset would fly well with very little tweaking... and that would cost only $300-400 more than getting a bonta head for the N9.

However... I decided to go ahead and order the bits needed to modify the Kasama head myself and do the bell crank mod... I'd hate to see a perfectly good N9 go to waist

(one that you personally rebuilt for its former owner, Chuckie).

I'll start off by pulling the SK360 from my 450 and see how that works (flips, rolls, and sloppy tic tocs are the extent of my 3d skills). If that doesn't fly well I'll get another Vbar unit. My only concern is the fact that the N9 runs with quite a bit more vibration than the 600N... not sure if that is just a fact of life with the 90 engines, but I do worry it'll mess with the Vbar/SK sensor. However, The SK does have a vibration dampening setting in the software which the Vbar does not.

We'll see. It'll likely be 2 or 3 weeks before I get the thing in the air, but I'll write back when I do... Hopefully just to say how great it flies

Thanks

-David

11-07-2009 06:49 PM

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Synergy R/C Synergy N9 > Flybarless questions

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