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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > OS 50 tuning
 
 
Diego
Senior Heliman
Location: Oviedo or Cartagena, Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi guys,
I´m getting conflicting temp readings so i thought about asking here.

My setup:

OS 50 non hyper with stock muffler
high needle: 1.5 turns
low needle: 1 o´clock
air temp: 61
venom reading: 215
finger reading: i could keep it in the back plate all day long, a bit warm
power: i would not mind a little more.
fuel: optifuel 30%

The question? i think what the venom and my finger are telling me does not match, i´m inclined to follow my finger but reading the number on the temp gage scares me a little.

opinions?

Thanks.
11-02-2009 05:59 PM
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Andy from Sandy
Key Veteran
Location: UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Degrees F so you are just over 100 degs C. You can go to 221 F (105C). Some run even hotter maybe as high as 230 degs F (110C).

This is all dependent on atmospherics. With dense air you need to run richer than thin air so needle settings vary. Where I am my main is at about 1.25 turns with low just a tad richer than factory. Back plate on the hotter side of warm but I could go in 1 or 2 more clicks.
11-02-2009 08:10 PM
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the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		as Andy, I too for the most part would think there is no problem at all with a high Reading of 215F,,

but with such a deviation in Engines, Mufflers, Fans, Flying Styles and mostly Fuels, some engines with some Fuels would have no problems for years running hotter,,

as for the Touching of the Back Plate Method, if your Idle is on the Rich Side the Engine can cool down as you Spool Down at Idle,, so it can be a Catch 22,, and yes, I have to say, like many other I too have used this Method in the past for tuning, not any more, but I still do touch the Back Plate but just to make sure the Back Plate is not Searing Hot

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
11-02-2009 10:40 PM
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duckmansweb
Senior Heliman
Location: Sunshine coast, QLD, Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		http://media.libsyn.com/media/insid...ertKammerer.mp3

download this MP3 , listen to it , its bert kammerer sponsered by OS etc , Starts around 31 mins in. Talks about a lot more than this but this was real interesting to me and thought I'd share.

CHANGING THE WORLD ONE HELI AT A TIME
11-03-2009 02:41 AM
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nickt919
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisiana

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
as for the Touching of the Back Plate Method, if your Idle is on the Rich Side the Engine can cool down as you Spool Down at Idle,, so it can be a Catch 22,

I got caught by the catch 22 this weekend tuning without a temp gun and using the finger..... Engine running awesome in the cool air...right on the edge I guess and it caught me for the first time ever. The "finger" was warm to the touch and could have stayed there quite a while.
This is how not to tune by the finger method....or can I get away with saying, "Typical OS Quality??"

11-03-2009 06:57 PM
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canbarelyhover
Veteran
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		+1

Quote 
its bert kammerer sponsered by OS etc , Starts around 31 mins in. Talks about a lot more than this but this was real interesting to me and thought I'd share.

btw, the tuning segment was specific to the os 50 hyper and mentions some pitfalls to avoid when tuning with 2 needles. good interview!

-James
got nitro?
11-03-2009 07:29 PM
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the Wasp
rrProfessor
Location: Vt

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		""or can I get away with saying, "Typical OS Quality??"""

Nick,, I don't understand why that Side of the Piston Top is chipped away as it is because that piston really doesn't show signs of being ran log while tuned overly lean,, if it was run Lean for a while the Top and Exhaust Side of the Piston would be more brown,,

I could be wrong but I think something other than a Lean Run damaged that Engine !!

Jim
Buzz Buzz Buzz
11-04-2009 12:21 AM
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Diego
Senior Heliman
Location: Oviedo or Cartagena, Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Thanks,

I wil listen to that mp3 in a few hours.
11-04-2009 09:25 PM
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Zaneman007
Elite Veteran
Location: Texas - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		nick,

From the photos, that was not due to overheating. There are no burn marks or scorching. I would say that the ring moved and caught one of the ports. The engine probably made a pop sound and thats was all she wrote. The dents are from ring bits flying around.

An overheated engine will burn the glow plug out and scorch the piston.I did not see that on yours. There is a little knob on the piston that keeps the ring from turning. If it is worn down and the ring moves, one of the open ends can uncompress when once it is one of the ports. Then the engine will lock up.

Bean there done that.

Old Guys Rule!
11-04-2009 11:01 PM
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nickt919
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisiana

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		The ring did hang up on the intake port. It deformed the the sleeve on the top edge of the port where it caught. I figured it ran lean because there are a few vertical lines scratched into the piston by the intake port just about from top to bottom but there's no scorching from excessive heat. I didn't hear anything, it just quit. The heli was too far out to hear anything odd when it died. This is my first for tearing up an engine. I did LOTS of bearings but none to the point of coming apart.
11-05-2009 12:13 AM
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bbaxter
Senior Heliman
Location: Central Illinois

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		If the ring caught a port, and the engine had never been disassembled previously, then the most likely cause would be either an overheat to the point the ring seized to the liner and then the engine's rotation caused it to break out the piston......or some foreign matter got into the engine and got caught between the piston and a port. That would cause more and more damage as the broken parts got thrown around. Check the rear bearing to see if it threw any debris. If not, then something from outside the engine is the likely cause. If your engine had manufacturing debris in it large enough to cause the problem, you would not have been able to run the engine for even one tank's-worth before getting damage.

Just as an "FYI" to all, you do not necessarily get "burn marks" if you have an overheat. It all depends upon how much running at high heat you do.
11-05-2009 03:05 PM
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Diego
Senior Heliman
Location: Oviedo or Cartagena, Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Very interesting podcast, it helped me understand a little better how tuning works.

Of course once you get a solution for one problem you create a different one that you need answers to.

I discovered following the tuning advice that i have a 20 degree F difference between a venom temp gage and my temp gun i was tuning for 220 on the venom and when i used the gun i was getting 195.

I´m an optimist so i believe the venom is wrong , seriously, i get good smoke and none of that engine discomfort they were talking about when going to TH, i returned the low end to factory setting and the low-midrange was obviously rich with a lot of gurgling when spooling up, i did not lean the high needle past 220 because i´m not sure who is at fault here, i think a have some wiggle room but i´m a bit apprehensive.

And now the question, how can i calibrate or check the venom´s (or the gun´s)accuracy?

Also, this difference only happens at higher temps, the closer the reading to air temp the more they match.
11-06-2009 04:36 PM
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GMPheli
Key Veteran
Location: W. Bridgewater, MA USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		R u sure the piston was not in backwards? If so the ring end gap can end up in a port.
11-06-2009 09:24 PM
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nickt919
Senior Heliman
Location: Louisiana

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		AS from the OP:
Quote 
The question? i think what the venom and my finger are telling me does not match, i´m inclined to follow my finger but reading the number on the temp gage scares me a little.

opinions?

I don't want to hyjack the thread or get off topic. My post was to show what I thought was a slight lean run which in turn led to engine failure. I do believe it happened from finger tuning and not using a temp gun. It appears to me that heat caused swelling which contributed to what I have here....
The piston was in right and the bearing didn't come apart...this I'm sure of. I have changed at least 3 sets of bearings in this engine and the last set had about 3 or 4 gallons on them. The rear bearing was just starting to get a little rough. The engine ran fine up until it quit.
What I did find is I had my main needle at 1 turn at 2 clicks. The fuel magnet sponge was quite old and some what clogged up. I used my finger to tune this engine and the back plate was no where near feeling extremely hot. Thanks for the input on my engine. I'd hope for this to contribute to the thread starters concerns about tuning methods.
11-07-2009 12:04 AM
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Zaneman007
Elite Veteran
Location: Texas - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Engine temp

Don't forget that engine temp is also a function of the cooling efficiency of the fan.

P.S. everyones finger(personal temp gauge) reads different.

Old Guys Rule!
11-11-2009 04:12 AM
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