RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - Cause or effect? - cracked A frame on Spectra G.

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Cause or effect? - cracked A frame on Spectra G.

Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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I'm a good machinist but terrible at getting a gasser to fly right.

I think you’ve made only common mistakes like many others have and learned by them so now it will all go together just fine

I only like to fly gassed up

11-04-2009 02:07 AM

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smallplanes
Key Veteran
Location: Timmonsville,S.C. ,USA

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Well if it works that good i think MA should make theres close to his on there new batch. I think his main focus is on his motor right now but i'm sure he will start making them again as soon as his motor is perfected.

Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
2 Evo 50's
3 Trex 450's
Trex 700
Raptor50
12Z

11-04-2009 02:11 AM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I don't think it's the fans that Wally is having trouble obtaining, rather it's the fan shrouds. He is testing a new Wally fan which will fit inside the stock Spectra fan shroud. But I think Wally is more busy with the Wally motor right now. Perhaps he has lost interest in the fan for the moment?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

11-04-2009 06:13 AM

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Carey Shurley
Veteran
Location: Orlando, FL

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but terrible at getting a gasser to fly right.

ahhh, but its a journey you'll appreciate when you get there. If you didn't appreciate the challenge you'd be flying some RTF chinese junk.

you're a machinist, a machine like this is EXACTLY what you enjoy working with.

11-04-2009 01:06 PM

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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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Man

Quote
If you didn't appreciate the challenge you'd be flying some RTF chinese junk

And someone recently told me jokingly, "and those people over there work for a bag of rice", and I couldn't stop laughing

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights

11-04-2009 03:37 PM

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smallplanes
Key Veteran
Location: Timmonsville,S.C. ,USA

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Wal-Mart started the down fall of American made products. I do like the fact that MA is US made. If everyone keeps buying china goods it's going to kill the US economy.

Thanks MA

Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
2 Evo 50's
3 Trex 450's
Trex 700
Raptor50
12Z

11-04-2009 05:43 PM

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AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

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I do like the fact that MA is US made.

OOPs not for long.

Ace
What could be more fun?

11-04-2009 08:52 PM

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Carey Shurley
Veteran
Location: Orlando, FL

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I don't think you're going to see any significant change in the percentage of components in an XCell being made offshore.

Like everything else, some specific pieces of them have been made globally for a long time especially with the Furion 450

All of the design is done in the US as is most of the manufacturing. Thats not going to change.

11-04-2009 09:08 PM

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gramey
Senior Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

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Raja, thanks for the offer on the parts I've ordered what I need for now from Ron's HeliPro's. Whilst I may be sitting here wanting to give up on the Spectra I think the reality is that I'd lose too much money on it. With that in mind I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and buy a side mount exhaust if people think this helps reduce the likelyhood of the rear frame failing.

I can't seem to find the Hatori pipe for sale so I guess it would be a toss up between the Zimmerman, who I'd begrudge giving more of my money to, or a Century V4. That said Century in the UK are positively dreadful to deal with so unless they've got one in stock, unlikely, it would have to come from the U.S. anyway. So what's the verdict, Zimmerman or Century for the next effort?

Smallplanes, if your up to producing a beefed up version of the A frames I'd take a couple off you. The rear exhamounts where the four bolts go into the A frame through the carbon fibre plates. As you'd need to make this section of it the same as the stock one to fit in the frames there shouldn't be a problem with the exhaust. The weakness appears to be the frame is too thin in the circular part where the spark plug goes. I'm not sure if the problem is the dimensions of the stock frame or the fact the 'CNC' A frame is actually cast and only finished with a CNC machine. If you could replicate the part in either stainless, or even better titanium, the original dimensions may be sufficient. I don't know what your thought are on this as this is just my opinion from a non engineer.

Dumb thumb specialist

11-04-2009 09:47 PM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I would buy a couple of those beefed up A-frames from you as well, Ivan.

I'm not ready to throw away my $245 Zimmerman rear mount muffler and spend another $200 on a side mount. Instead, I'd glady buy a new $17 A-frame from MA every couple months. Better yet would be to buy a beefed up A-frame from Smallplanes which wouldn't break in the first place.

I sent Brian (manager of MA) a PM asking him to comment on this thread. Raja had apparently tried to get MA to make a beefed up A-frame awhil back, but I have not heard anything back from Brian yet. He's probably busy turning out those Fury 55s.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

11-04-2009 09:57 PM

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gramey
Senior Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

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jrockstuart I think you may be missing the point here, you shouldn't have to be replacing $17.00 A frames on a heli the price of the Spectra. I'd rather they put a $22.00 or whatever A frame in there in the first place and decent tail grips etc. and may be charge $100.00 more or so than need to change out parts every couple of months.

The british manufacturing industry has by and large disappeared due to it's complacency to foreign imports and if the likes of MA want to be around in years to come they need to start waking up before it's too late.
You can knock the Align and presuambly forthcoming TSA gassers as much as you like but they'll be priced to sell. The gasser market isn't that big that even established companies can afford to sit on their laurels and pretend their entry into the gasser market won't affect them. They wouldn't be coming into it if they didn't think they could dominate the market.

I can buy a T Rex 700 Limited Edition, just requiring engine & receiver for 2/3 the price of what my MA kit cost me for air frmae and engine only.

There is always room for a quality product, pretty much regardless of which market your in, but in order to do this there shouldn't be any question marks over the quality of what your selling.

I hope things pan out with your rear mount but if needs be I'll stump up the money for another exhaust if that's what it takes to get this thing flying regularly

Dumb thumb specialist

11-04-2009 10:33 PM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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jrockstuart I think you may be missing the point here, you shouldn't have to be replacing $17.00 A frames on a heli the price of the Spectra. I'd rather they put a $22.00 or whatever A frame in there in the first place and decent tail grips etc. and may be charge $100.00 more or so than need to change out parts every couple of months.

The one thing about MA that I like which I do not find in any of the Far East heli manufacturers is that MA will listen to customer concerns (in English) and respond. I think if we put enough pressure on MA, they will redesign the rear A-frame for us since they are obviously failing when coupled with the sleek and sexy Zimmerman rear-mount exhaust. Now I can't guarantee they will listen because we are dealing with the "New" Miniature Aircraft now instead of the "Old" MA, but I get the initial impression after talking to the new MA staff that listening to customers and fixing problems is part of their mission statement.

As for re-releasing the metal t/r grips, I think this will eventually come to pass as well. They certainly have the manufacturing facilities now to make anything CNC they want. Once again, we just need to put pressure on them.

Has anyone other than me PM'd or called MA lately and asked for these changes? I think I call them about once a month and ask for CNC metal t/r grips to be re-released because that is one of my favorite parts of the helicopter. Looks like I need to do the same with a thicker A-frame. But you all have to follow my lead and do the same. Raja is on the phone with MA every other week asking for something custom.

It's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease.

I think selling my Spectra would net me about half of what I put into it, and mine is still brand new. I think it is in all of our best interest to work with MA to get them to fix and redesign the parts on the Spectra which are failing. It is obviously good for their company if we are flying MA helicopters at our local flying fields because it will help them to sell more Fury 55s. So if the Spectra A-frames are cracking, then they need to be redesigned.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

11-04-2009 11:08 PM

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TaleGunner
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Location: Deer Park WA

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The only ones cracking are those that have used the rear mount muffler? Is this true?
Even the zimmerman rear mount brackets are cracking. so there is a vibration issue when using this muffler.

I'm still not convinced that this is a design weakness in the A frame as they work fine without the muffler mounted there. maybe Zimmerman should offer an upgraded A frame as part of there muffler package.

I too would like to see the metal tail grips come back

CRASH! GLUE! REPEAT!

11-04-2009 11:22 PM

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jrockstuart
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Location: Allen, Texas

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maybe Zimmerman should offer an upgraded A frame as part of there muffler package.

That's funny. Zimmerman won't be bothered long enough to make a header which fits correctly. They're certainly not going to make anything else to help us.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

11-05-2009 12:30 AM

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smallplanes
Key Veteran
Location: Timmonsville,S.C. ,USA

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Well if i made the a frame out of stainless steel or titanum the price would be alot higher than $17 bucks that kind of metal is very expensive and slow to machine. If you use SS it will be a lot heavier than the aluminum one and then it needs to black anodized and that can cost a lot unless they do a lot of them at one time. I think MA needs to make two versions of the Spectra a base model and a higher end model,i like the MA alot but i do not like the plastic parts in some of the places they use them. I don't know how the rear muffler mounts so i don't really know where it needs to be beefed up. I did not know the A frame was cast,cast is nowhere as strong as CNC Milled. I don't know if MA is going to make the tail grips out of Aluminum but i have been working on my own aluminum grips. Theres a few parts on the head that i plan on making my own out of aluminum,i don't mind the grips being plastic but some of the bell cranks need to be made out of aluminum. If MA wants to make the best heli on the market they need to upgrade some of the parts,i know the price will have to go up but thats why i said they need to make two versions. They need to make one to compete with some of the foreign helis but they need to make one thats a cut above the rest. If anyone has any good pics of the rear mount muffler i would like to see how it mounts and see what might make it stronger. If i can get my heli flying and fine tuned i might like to buy a rear mount muffler for mine so if any of you out there have an extra one that they want to sale let me know.

Thanks for the support

Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
2 Evo 50's
3 Trex 450's
Trex 700
Raptor50
12Z

11-05-2009 12:42 AM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I don't know how the rear muffler mounts so i don't really know where it needs to be beefed up.

If you look at your helicopter, the rear A-frame has 4 bolts (2 on either side) at the top of the "A". The Zimmerman rear mount has thin stainless steel flanges that mount to either side of the top of the A-frame. You don't even need to use longer bolts because the stainless steel is less than 1/2mm thick. It clamps to either side of the CF doubler.

The weak point on the A-frame is the circle where they cut a notch for the spark plug boot to fit in. They used to sell and A-frame with the circle for the spark plug but without the notch, but they have since discontinued it.

MA used to make metal bellcranks, but they replaced them last year with CF bellcranks which I do not like. The CF bellcrank is the upgrade from the plastic bellcrank. I think they need to reintroduce the metal bellcranks.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

11-05-2009 12:54 AM

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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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You have to remember

The Spectra was designed in the absense of the zimmerman rear mount muffler and originally with the side mounted Hatori muffler. They never planned on people hanging 3/4 pounds of extra weight on the back A frame. With its big mass vibration makes it work on the A frame metal and fatigue it thus it cracks.

The A frame as originally designed is strong enough for the model. I have 200 hrs on it without that zimmerman and it never cracked, only bent in some crashes which can be expected.

A side mounted muffler is certainly the easy solution, if you want to stick with the rear mount zimmerman, then you gotta debug it!

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights

11-05-2009 01:52 AM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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They never planned on people hanging 3/4 pounds of extra weight on the back A frame.

Does your RM Zimmerman really weigh that much?

I think the difference between having to pay another $200+ to buy a big a** muffler which will hang off the side of my helicoopter vs. finding someone to make me a custom A-frame out of good quality aluminum makes the rear mount an obvious choice in my situation. Now if only the problems with the header and the Zimmerman RM muffler cracking could be solved.

Does the stock Spectra A-frame give any indications that it is cracking, or does it happen all of a sudden such that the back half of your helicopter is just hanging there in the wind?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

11-05-2009 02:35 AM

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MinAirUSA
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Location: Billings, Montana USA

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Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do like the fact that MA is US made. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- OOPs not for long.

Actually, that's not going to change. Lucky for us, our parent company FlyCo owns Big Sky CNC. (a U.S. company as well) Chris who runs Big Sky CNC is not only a talented machinist, but has a degree in mechanical engineering. There are certain parts for MA helicopters that have been sourced from overseas, (this is nothing new, it has ALWAYS been this way) but the vast majority of the parts in our kits are produced right here in the USA. This is very important to us, and we are not planning to outsource any more than we have to. If anyone has any specific questions about where a component of our model is made, I'll be happy to answer.

I wanted to take a minute to thank Jrockstuart for bringing the cracking "A" frame issue to my attention. I will address this issue with our design team, and see if we can come up with a solution.

Currently, MA is totally occupied getting ready for the release of our new Fury 55, but I don't want anyone to think that means we can't solve other issues. Changes usually don't happen overnight, but I'll see what we can do.

Miniature Aircraft USA

11-05-2009 03:05 AM

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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

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Well if i made the a frame out of stainless steel or titanum

I bought a small sheet of titanium offcut a while ago. Msn, that stuff is hard to work with basic hobby power tools! From the practical point it ended up being better using hand tools and patience unless able to invest in 'real' tooling and cooling.

It did show me why titanium rc helis aren't mainstream!!...but like all things there's always a market for high end quality...

pgk

11-05-2009 07:24 AM

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Cause or effect? - cracked A frame on Spectra G.

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