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Main Discussion > Lazy Susan Ground Resonance?
 
 
GimbalFanrrProfessor - Location: Copter County, Nv - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Prompted by an earlier thread and reposted here -- cuz though we've all seen our helis resonate while spooling up or spooling down, I've never heard of one resonating while on a lazy susan test stand.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

I know the guy well who built and uses this one. He's tested over 30 helis literally 100's of times with this rig, including 600-sized electrics -- one of which tossed its mainblades due to a linkage failure.

Besides checking blade tracking and tail setups, it's also used while collecting data with Eagle Tree equipment during lift capacity tests, etc. According to him, at no time was ground resonance evident.

Testing is done with the turntable locked or unlocked, as required. The blade toss from the 600 came while unlocked, and may have been due in part to an unexpected misdirected highly toxic chili fart.

So -- Safe or Unsafe? Foo Shield or NO Foo Shield? Plain Chili or Chili Con Carne?

PS -- Long Live The Foo!
10-29-2009 09:40 PM
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gian
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Location: AZ

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Not much debate out of me, but:
10-29-2009 09:42 PM
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NZ_Nitro
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Location: New Zealand

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Bloody funny

Remember The Foo
10-29-2009 09:46 PM
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VooDooX
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area CA, US (San Mateo)

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99.9999999999999% of an atom is empty space
10-29-2009 09:47 PM
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Bundian
Senior Heliman
Location: Miami, FL USA

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LOL!

Fly it like you stole it!!!
10-29-2009 09:59 PM
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GyroFreak
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Location: Florida ... 28° 52' N 81° 16' W

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Depends on if the inverted thrust bearings are the levitation type inside the lazy susan, or are they the simple particle entanglement force field with gravity wave shields.
Any way, no argument from me either.

Bacteria They're the only culture some men have
Growing old is mandatory; growing up is opti
10-29-2009 10:26 PM
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GimbalFan
rrProfessor
Location: Copter County, Nv

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I'll speculate that the reason RC helis don't appear to resonate on a turntable is because the overall flexibility (skids to swash) of our birds is usually much less (proportionately) than the full-sized birds we've all seen come apart.

Or maybe cuz friction-free yawing somehow dissipates ground resonance.

Engineers? Physics professors?

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
10-29-2009 11:55 PM
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hootowl
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Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

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Will the plane fly?

'Blessed is the man who expects nothing, for he shall never be disappointed'
10-30-2009 12:05 AM
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colsy
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Location: Cambridge, UK

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LMFAO

Controled environment!! go for it..

Not ground resonance, more 'restricted' resonance.

Col.

Only Quote From Experience.
10-30-2009 12:07 AM
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FBoss
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Location: Aurora Indiana USA

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Im guessing that since the assembly is supported by ball bearings in a very loose tolerance cage the energy that causes the resonance is absorbed/dissipated within the ball/cage assembly. That cage must vibrate like mad. Kinda like its not a "solid" surface. Tied to the ground the energy flows to the "link in the chain" that can dissipate the energy, which is the heli.

The good ole times are now ,Hawk, Raven, Raven NX, Logo 10
10-30-2009 12:22 AM
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GimbalFan
rrProfessor
Location: Copter County, Nv

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The ball bearings in the turntable above are roughly ½" in diameter. It's a lazy susan designed for heavy loads. It has almost no detectable slack or slop.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
10-30-2009 12:30 AM
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FBoss
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Location: Aurora Indiana USA

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The cage wont pull apart a few hundredths? Are the balls in full contact with each other? (fully adjacent w/o slop?) Hmmm
At least the assembly is "loose" enough to rotate....even good bearings have some runout/play (as in sealed traditional ball bearings)

The good ole times are now ,Hawk, Raven, Raven NX, Logo 10
10-30-2009 12:34 AM
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GimbalFan
rrProfessor
Location: Copter County, Nv

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Quote 
The cage wont pull apart a few hundredths? Are the balls in full contact with eachother? (fully adjacent w/o slop?) Hmmm
Lemme make a phone call . . . BRB

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
10-30-2009 12:36 AM
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GimbalFan
rrProfessor
Location: Copter County, Nv

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His well-educated guess is that he can tilt the turntable about 2 thousandths at its edge. The bearings are in a caged race.

EDIT -- He meant 2 thousandths straight up, so that would be 4 thousandths at the 6"-square turntable's edges.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
10-30-2009 12:41 AM
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FBoss
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Location: Aurora Indiana USA

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hey its just a guess.....but I dont think you need a lot, just enough for it not to be solid? especially since there is a ton of surface area (all the balls + the bearing surface fo the races)

The good ole times are now ,Hawk, Raven, Raven NX, Logo 10
10-30-2009 12:45 AM
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GimbalFan
rrProfessor
Location: Copter County, Nv

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Quote 
I dont think you need a lot, just enough for it not to be solid?
You might be right. I don't know either, hence this thread.

As for the 600 which tossed its blades into the Foo Shield, headspead was about 1900. There was zero cyclic input but the collective was approaching max positive. There was no resonance at the time of the toss nor before.

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
10-30-2009 12:56 AM
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TaleGunner
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Location: Deer Park WA

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Its so obvious that the chili is acting a dampener



CRASH! GLUE! REPEAT!
10-30-2009 01:08 AM
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Brokenlink
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Location: Oakdale,Ca.

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In December 2005, an Aerospatiale Alouette III landing at Escalante National Monument in Utah suffered ground resonance that tore the helicopter apart in four seconds. All aboard survived

“I was standing right next to it,” says Frank Robinson, founder of the world’s leading helicopter company, describing a close call he had during a 1961 test of a gyroplane. “I had to grab hold of it and hang on and ride the damn thing down. You don’t want to be standing out there when it starts to jump around — it can jump on you. And there’s not a good way to get out of it. Just cut everything, hang on and hope.”

What Robinson wrestled with is ground resonance, a demon that has demolished helicopters and killed pilots, passengers, and bystanders. The National Transportation Safety Board records 34 incidents in the United States since 1990, but that does not include military helicopters or incidents that did not injure people or destroy the helicopter.

Not all types of helicopters are susceptible to ground resonance. All those two-blade Robinsons are exempt because their “teetering” rotors are a single rigid structure, like a see-saw. The only rotors that can produce ground resonance are those with three or more blades. Multi-blade rotors have lead-lag hinges, which allow blades to speed up and slow down at different points as they circle the mast while the helicopter is moving forward. The hinges keep the fluctuating lift and drag forces on each blade from inflicting excessive stresses on the rotor hub. Snubbers and dampers limit the motions of the blades.

Because it is massive and spinning at a high speed, the rotor of a helicopter must be properly balanced. If the lead-lag hinges allow the blades to depart from perfect symmetry, the rotor’s center of gravity shifts slightly to one side of the mast, throwing the system out of balance.

Anything that’s springy has a favorite frequency of vibration—its natural frequency—which is determined in part by its size and mass. That’s why tuning forks always produce a certain tone, and why boats of different sizes rock at different rates. When two things with the same or similar natural frequencies are in contact, or sometimes even merely close to each another, and one of them begins to vibrate, it may “excite” the other to vibrate as well. The ability of one vibrating object to create this sympathetic vibration in another is what enables the rotor blades to gain control of the entire helicopter.

The helicopter’s airframe has its own natural frequency, which can be excited by an out-of-balance rotor. Usually there is a triggering event: a bump or a landing or takeoff on sloping ground or with a little sideways or forward motion. A jolt moves the mast while the blades, because of the freedom of motion allowed by their hinges, lag a little behind. The rotor, now slightly out of balance, begins to wobble like a slowing top. If the characteristic vibration frequency of the airframe is close enough to the rate of rotation of the rotor, it joins the dance, amplifying the rotor wobble.

The destruction is wrought by the considerable energy stored in the rotor blades. The shaking rapidly grows in violence, exceeding the strength of the mast, transmission mounts, and landing gear. The cyclic control in the cockpit flails about so violently that the pilot cannot hold it, the rotor blades strike the tail boom or the cockpit, parts begin falling off, and moments later the helicopter may be a heap of scrap.

If ground resonance begins, the pilot’s best option is to get the helicopter into the air. Once the tires or skids are no longer touching the ground, the vibration fades. If the rotors do not have sufficient speed for flight—or if, as in Robinson’s case, the aircraft is a gyroplane and can not hold itself aloft—the next best remedy is to eliminate lift by reducing blade pitch; shut down the engine; and hope for the best while waiting for the rotor to slow.

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards
10-30-2009 01:14 AM
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GimbalFan
rrProfessor
Location: Copter County, Nv

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Interesting read BL -- a clear, concise explanation -- but why do you suppose RC helis on turntables don't seem to exhibit ground resonance?

op-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-thwõp-t
10-30-2009 01:18 AM
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Brokenlink
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Location: Oakdale,Ca.

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Quote 
but why do you suppose RC helis on lazy susans don't seem to resonate?
That my friend,I couldn't tell ya

"Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards
10-30-2009 01:21 AM
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