RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - T-REX 250 Major problems with Tail setup and gyro!!! Please help!

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > T-REX 250 Major problems with Tail setup and gyro!!! Please help!

axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

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Alright guys,
I have very little experience with the T-250, it is completely new to me. I just got mine from a buddy about a week ago and i have been having some issues setting it up. Most of the issues are worked out now, but the last one has really got me stumped. It's the tail setup. I can not get the tail to work right. I fly many other helicopters ranging from the T-450 to the T-600E and all of them are setup with the Futaba GY 401.

I am using the Align GP-750 with this little heli. I have never setup this gyro and I seem to be having some major issues with it. I am flying it with the Futaba T9CHPS radio, using the TM-8 module and the R617 RX. With the 401 i use the (GY) Mode in Gyro sensitivity menu. with this heli and the GP-750 Currently in normal i have only 13% gain and AVC or heading hold can only be set at 1% right now without the tail going totally nuts. I had to trim it out majorly with the radio to get the tail from drifting, but as soon as I try and set it higher to keep the tail solid it starts shaking violently like overgain, but it barely has any gain at all and the heading hold isn't working at all, i pretty much have to fly it in normal mode which doesn't hold at all hardly and will gradually drift.

So what is the deal? Do i need to change my settings to (Std) Mode on the radio or what? why can I not get the tail to hold without wagging really hard. It is so hard to setup the tail mechanically also without any trim because the linkage is so small and any adjustments just go too far the wrong way. PLEASE, anyone with this gyro and the Futaba radio chime in and help with your settings and what worked for you and how yours might be different from mine. Anyone, who has had any problems like this please chime in and help me figure out how to fix it with whatever you did???

Thanks,
-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-29-2009 05:28 AM

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knightofcarnage
Senior Heliman
Location: chicago

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It sound like you have some binding in the tail. Check your push rod for binding? What tail servo are you using? What delay do you on your tail? I'm almost 100% sure that 750 works only in AVCS mode. So make sure you in GY mode and AVCS ( you can get 30% gain with stock setup ,if you have no slop and add some delay on gyro.)

10-29-2009 06:18 AM

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axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

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Thank you so much knightofcarnage, for your reply. I will have to go back and check out the binding situation.

AS for the servo on the tail I am running the: Align DS-420 digital servo with the GP-750 Gyro. I was not at all Aware i needed to run any delay on the gyro. With the 401 I never had to run any delay when using digital servos. I will have to figure out how to set delay on the gyro. This whole thing is kinda hard to setup since i bought this heli from a buddy of mine and i didn't get any of the manuals from him on it.

Thanks again for the input.

-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-29-2009 06:31 AM

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coolice
Key Veteran
Location: Northamptonshire, England

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Hey,

Just to add onto what knightofcarnage has said, how far out is your steel control ball on the rudder servo arm?
This is quite critical and must be no more than 5mm from centre, even 4.5mm if you can as this has an effect on how much gain can be run on these little 250's.

On the GP750 there is a setting for "Mini/Micro Heli" delay which also needs to be set.

I found a link to someones gallery here on RR with the Trex250 manual for you to download, might come in handy

Credits to "stocky" for putting these files into his gallery.

http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/g...?script=Manuals

Direct link; http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/g...0_manual-lo.pdf

The GP750 manual is also linked there as well;
http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/g...P750_Manual.pdf
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK

10-29-2009 12:12 PM

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axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

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WOW! thanks coolice. That was really awesome of you to get that info for me. I really appreciate it. I'll go take a look and also use your suggestions tonight to work on getting the gyro working better.
Thanks guys,
-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-29-2009 03:00 PM

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Zaaaguy72
Key Veteran
Location: Grand Rapids, MN

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Also, to prevent drag, I removed the tail rod guides and put the antenna tube that came with the kit over the tail push rod. It seemed to really smooth out my tail not having the guides on.

Dude, look at your tail!!!!

10-29-2009 03:14 PM

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pcinc
Senior Heliman
Location: Westfield, MA

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[/quote]I had to trim it out majorly with the radio to get the tail from drifting,[quote]

I think this may be part of your problem. I just set up a 401 and did the same thing and the tail never acted right. The only way I could get it to work correctly was to remove all the trim in my radio , set the gyro to rate mode and keep adjusting the tail linkage until it flew straigh twith no correction input.Then go back into HH mode and set the gain until it just started wagging, then back off enough to stop the wag.The Gyro just doesn't like trim in the radio at all.

Give it a try!

Good luck with it,
Peter

10-29-2009 03:27 PM

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himaxkeith
Senior Heliman
Location: Atlantic City NJ. USA

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It could be the channel that you have your gain pluged in. Your using a nine channel radio then you lost one channel with the TM-8 module then your using a 7 channel reciever. What channel do you have the gain plugged in? And your using radio trim that alone is no good. Also go to your gyro screen and check the gain. It should go from 0-100 [N] normal mode then as your turn the dial to increese it should switch over to 0-100 [A] which is heading hold. or AVAC. mode and check your switch assignments also.You might be changing the gyro gain in the wrong flight mode such as idle up 1,2 or three instead of the mode your in. It could be the reason why you adjust the gain and has no effect.

10-29-2009 04:36 PM

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axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

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I have the Gain Channel setup right on the radio, this I am sure of. Channel 5. Like i said before, i am NO rookie. I have been flying heli's for 3 years now and have a lot of experience with flying as well as setup. I am just finding this little guy to be very different from any of the other heli's i have setup before. Not to mention the GP-750 is a completely different Gyro from anything I am used to setting up, (which is usually the 401). I was just wondering if there were any major things i needed to look out for that differ with this heli being that it is so small? I appreciate all of the feedback i have gotten so far, it has given me a lot to go on and try out differently with this heli. I am going to also need to go back and try some more on getting the tail trimmed mechanically instead of using trim in the radio, i know this is a big no, no with the 401, but i thought maybe it would work with the GP750. Anyway, i will give some of these things a try tonight and see what happens. thanks everyone,

-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-29-2009 04:52 PM

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coolice
Key Veteran
Location: Northamptonshire, England

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Hey Clint,

Your welcome buddy

There are some good things to look at posted in this topic now and so you've got a busy night ahead of you

It is known that the smaller the model the more difficult it can be to get a nice feeling tail rotor, it took me a short while of fiddling with my own 250 to get it where it is now.

It's not been mentioned but the Align DS420 tail servo is normally the first thing changed by 250 owners as it can sometimes be the cause of problems. Quite why I do not know as the specs of it are great, but it's worth bearing in mind.

On my model I've kept one tail pushrod guide roughly central along the boom, otherwise I think the thin wire will bend in flight.
A worthwhile mod others have made is to use a 2mm piece of carbon to make a tail pushrod from, negating the need for any guides.

When it comes to gyro setup in rate mode first before engaging heading hold mode, so far I've only flown in headinh hold mode. Using rate mode to centre the servo & tail blades only, on this model I've not tried the more normal way to comment on if it's any better or not.
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK

10-29-2009 04:59 PM

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knightofcarnage
Senior Heliman
Location: chicago

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I did forget to mention one other very important part make sure you are not more the 4.5 mm on the servo arm. If you to far you lose a lot of resolution on the servo.

10-29-2009 07:26 PM

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axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

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WEll... I don't know what to do at this point???

I have tried everything. I redid the pushrod and completely reset the mechanical setup to be trimmed mechanically as close as possible. I changed out the servo horn to make the ball link about 5mm from the center of the servo horn. I went through and rechecked all my gyro settings making sure i am setup correctly for the GP-750 running the DS420 servo.

1. 1520
2. DS
3. reverse (correct)
4. limit (set to keep from binding)
5. delay mode set on mini (red) and I adjusted this thing both ways 0%-100% and neither made a difference.

I can't get anywhere in the radio on the gyro gain settings above 15% gain in HH and 13% in normal, SUPER low! and barely holding. it will hold sort of, but even at this low of a gain setting it still twitches every now and then???

I have tried everything. I don't know what else to do at this point. I have no way of figuring out if something is either wrong with my servo or the gyro itself. I can tell you though... I never had any kind of this trouble setting up the good ol' 401 gyro?

If you guys can think of any other things to try Please! I'm all ears.

-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-30-2009 05:24 AM

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coolice
Key Veteran
Location: Northamptonshire, England

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Hey Clint,

just a thought but is the tail rotor grips using the newer bearing setup? The older ones used two smaller bearings which caused all sorts of issues. The models probably been updated but it's worth asking.

Gyro gain I wouldn't worry to much about if you are just using a stock aux channel to control it and not Futabas own GY gyro gain setup. Reason being on a normal aux channel setup the overall travel is split into two;
0~50% = 0~100% HH gain
51~100% = 0~100% rate gain or vice versatile

hence your low figures might in reality need to be doubled to read right.

I hate to say it but your next port of call might be a tail servo change, the GY401 might have been more tolerant of a lesser servo than the GP750. Other peoples experiences with gain settings to tail wagging have all but stopped after a servo change.

The gyro mounting plate isn't too lose within the frames also maybe?

What tail blades you using to? I cut my originals down to 37mm and Align now sell dedicated 38mm length ones
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK

10-30-2009 10:55 AM

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axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

My Posts This: Topic Forum

Thanks so much coolice! You have really been a big help. I am currently using the smaller thinner tail blades. The ones that are curved like a feather not the square looking ones which are bigger. Should I try the bigger square ones? I am unsure of the tail rotor bearings that are in here, this heli was already built because I bought it off a buddy of mine. How would I know if they are the right ones or not. I don't have all the original stuff.

Also, since the problem could be my servo, the DS420. What servo do you recommend replacing it with? Thanks buddy for any more help you can give me. Your awesome!

Cheers,

-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-30-2009 07:14 PM

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knightofcarnage
Senior Heliman
Location: chicago

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I really doubt that you have the old setup, unless the it was a very old kit. Easiest way to check is. If you have weighted grips then you don't have to check any further, but if don't have the chinese weighted grips then you will have to take the grips apart to see what bearings , bushing and hub you have.

10-30-2009 09:14 PM

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axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

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What do the "weighted Chinese" grips look like? This is what mine look like:

Thanks,

-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-30-2009 09:29 PM

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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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The DS420 is a hit or miss servo on the 250. The one I got was useless. It moved, but seemed to move in discrete large steps making the tail uncontrollable. I switched mine out for a JR copy of a Hitec HS-50 and it works quite well. Someday I'll spring for a better TR servo, but for now, the HS-50 clone seems fine.

The DS410s on the swash are fine, just the 420 is not that great.

The only way to tell which TR hub/grips you have is to take it apart and see.

My ball link is about 3, maybe 3.5 mm out from center on the TR servo. 5mm was way too much, I could only run about 15% gain on the GY401. Moving the ball link in allowed me to up the gain to around 30, gave me good control of the piro rates, and made the heli quite flyable.

-----

* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave

10-30-2009 10:43 PM

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axemanclint
Key Veteran
Location: Cypress, Tx. USA

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Thank you DK,
that is good info.

Cheers,
-Clint

"what goes up must come down," hopefully in one piece!

10-30-2009 10:48 PM

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knightofcarnage
Senior Heliman
Location: chicago

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9257 or 290g are the best.

10-31-2009 06:16 AM

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coolice
Key Veteran
Location: Northamptonshire, England

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Hi Clint,

As promised here is a photo of the cut down tail blades I made and the purchased Align ones.

]
.

Ian Contessa
Team Robbe SchluterUK

10-31-2009 12:19 PM

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e-Align T-REX 250-450-500-600 > T-REX 250 Major problems with Tail setup and gyro!!! Please help!

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