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MTA Hobbies . Model Rectifier Corp . Scorpion Power System

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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Another set bites the dust
 
 
dahld
Senior Heliman
Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Pushing the limit maybe??? (Sorry for the length...but had to explain).

If you are running 560's (about the largest blade you can fit on a 500), @ 2300 head speed (pretty high really), on Logo 500 main grips (they are smaller than the 600 grips, and the bearings are smaller), then you may be at the mechanical limits of the design. Slow it down .

The old (well still current I guess) fly bar and nitro mentality was that you need head speed to get performance. Us V-Bar and electric dudes need to think differently.

You don't need max head speed to get cyclic performance with the V-Bar. Just make it happen with the programming. And as for collective "pop", you can get the same performance with less head speed, by maxing out the collective range (+/- 14 degrees or so), using the "collective pump" in the V-Bar program, and the fact that a quality power system with quality battery packs will pull through maneuvers and won't bog like nitro does. Since the head speed stays more constant during maneuvers, you don't need a bunch of wasted head speed going in.

We used to run 2350 on the Logo 500, and 2300 on the Logo 600, and went through thrust bearings pretty regularly. Then at the XFC this year I got a serious talking to by the designer of Mikado helis, and he convinced us to lower our head speeds some, and reap the benefits (longer flights, easier on the batteries, and less stress on the machine), without sacrificing flight performance. We did, made some programming changes, and have never looked back.

So maybe try dropping your head speed at least down to 2200, maybe more with some experimentation, and make-up the difference as outlined above. Even 100 rpm will make a big difference in the life of the bearings, and you get all the other benefits as well .

Hope this helps.

, Dave

Kyle Dahl (16)
Sponsored by:
Mikado
Thunder Power
Kontronik
Scorpion
Egde Blades
10-30-2009 06:20 AM
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HeliMan Dave
Senior Heliman
Location: Chicago

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Dave,

I'm not running V-bar (yet) but I wonder if I should try what you're suggesting on my L500.

I'm running 6s 560's on 15t too and I'm at 2310. I get about 5:30 on 6s 5000's and I was going to try a 14t pinion to see how much flight time I'd gain.

I really like the way it flies now though

Logo 500 3D / E550 Raptor / E325 mini-Titan / T-Rex 250 / Blade CX-2 / Blade mCX
10-30-2009 06:45 PM
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KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
The stock m/r thrust bearings can't handle 3092 and tighter dampeners at higher rpms, order a set of thrusts from VXB

If you want to know who is running the hotter setup that puts more force on the machine, its very simple:

centripetal force = mass x velocity squared / radius

Take the center mass of the rotor blade for your radius and figure the velocity from there.
10-30-2009 06:57 PM
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HeliMan Dave
Senior Heliman
Location: Chicago

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Thanks KC.

The VXB thrusts are what I bought to replace the OEM's I was just using the originals since I had re-built it with some new 3092's and we are at the end of the outdoor season here.

I think I'm also going to lower the HS just a tad.

Logo 500 3D / E550 Raptor / E325 mini-Titan / T-Rex 250 / Blade CX-2 / Blade mCX
10-30-2009 07:04 PM
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NTM
Senior Heliman
Location: Lloydminster, Alberta, Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
I've been running 560mm blades at 2300rpm all summer, the thrusts still look new. Besides a 500se runs the standard 500 head, and would put more stress on the thrusts on 600mm blades at 2100-2200rpm head speed.


Egg, just order the proper parts for it.
You can drill out the 3mm grips, but I believe the newer ones were beefed up a bit too.
And the aluminum feathering spindle seems a bit scary.

Your problems are definitally stemming from having the race of the thrust bearing "cocked" to one side or the other.
Something is preventing the radial bearing from being seated straight, either the grip is a bad mold, or there's debris under it. The bearings are sometimes a pretty tight fit, and if you don't use a socket, or something similar, to drive the outer bearing race straight down, you can scrape plastic off of the grip that will prevent the bearing from sitting straight in the grip.
As the thrust bearing is squared off of the outer race of the radial bearing, the inner thrust race will be out of square to the outer thrust race. That'll kill thrust bearings real fast.

Regards,
Nathan
10-30-2009 08:23 PM
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eggmcmuffinplz
Elite Veteran
Location: Los Angeles, CA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Ok. Ill definitely be pulling the grips apart and cleaning them out. Dave, thanks for the lengthy post, but Im actually using a flybar head, as you may remember, I was the only one at LA3D with a flybar

Scott D
Logo 500 3D V-bar
10-30-2009 11:49 PM
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Terrabit
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Alright KC, my physics professor failed at this so, maybe you can help me understand how angular velocity, tangential speed, radians factor into the various equations used to quantify cetripetal force.

We should get some coffee, crash some helis, and talk about it.

All things being equal, I still think you ought to have even wear on both inner races.

Esprit Model Flight Team
10-31-2009 12:18 AM
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ke6d
Senior Heliman
Location: San Jose, CA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Alright KC, my physics professor failed at this so, maybe you can help me understand how angular velocity, tangential speed, radians factor into the various equations used to quantify cetripetal force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force

Current Fleet: T-Rex 600e FBL, Logo 500 VBar, Logo 400 FBL, Rave 450, Outrage G5, Gaui 200
10-31-2009 01:17 AM
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Terrabit
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centripetal_force


Dude! I'm the king of Wikistuff! Besides, I have a physics text book at my feet, and various academic resources at my disposal. I get it. I was mostly just being a smartas$. That is where my true tallents lay.

Esprit Model Flight Team
10-31-2009 01:39 AM
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KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
John, I'm down for some flying bro...

Crunching some numbers here for the OP, I had problems with 600mm 140 gram blades and stock thrust bearings over 2100rpm (KB green dampeners, about one hardness step above a 3092)....

Translating that to a 120 gram 560mm blade, the same things should happen to the thrusts by 2328rpm if I'm using the same rotorhead.

Knowing the 500 head is not as stout as the 600, its gonna take less than that.

I went through three sets of stock thrusts in two days trying tighter dampening, the problem was always at the cage that supports the balls....if using real tight dampeners and nothing else flexes, then this little piece of metal will have to do the flexing.

The VXBs can take more rpm and the tight dampening, but other problems show up that are way more dangerous than trashing thrusts if you keep bumping the rpm up...so honestly, hats off to the Mikado guys, the thrusts they use provide good feedback to what's too much.
10-31-2009 03:14 AM
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Terrabit
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Yeah, KC almost fell asleep yesterday flying his L600 through piroflips, death spirals, etc. while reclining in a folding chair. Seriously, sitting there with his shades on it kinda looked like he was napping.

What a jerk!

Esprit Model Flight Team
11-02-2009 04:17 PM
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eggmcmuffinplz
Elite Veteran
Location: Los Angeles, CA

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What are VXB thrusts?

Scott D
Logo 500 3D V-bar
11-02-2009 11:53 PM
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KC
Elite Veteran
Location: WA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
http://www.vxb.com/page/bearings/PROD/kit981

These are for 600s and 14/24s, whatever size the 500 uses, they probably have them too.
11-03-2009 06:32 AM
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e-Mikado Logo 400 500 600 > Another set bites the dust
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