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Radio - Futaba FASST > Is 401 OK for backward flying??
 
 
Spitfire1
Key Veteran
Location: Perth Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Im just wondering if I need a more expensive gyro, I can fly backward inverted in a straight line but when I turn the tail blows out into a piro, it happens when Im in the middle of a backward inverted turn and add any collective to stop the heli form descending, I dont have to be doing a funnel or anything too extreme, it doesent seem to take much and the tail blows out.
10-26-2009 03:50 AM
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OnTheSnap
New Heliman
Location: Santa Clara, Ca

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I had the same problem on my 600E 12s. I upgraded to a GY520, and the problem was gone. The 401 is an OK gyro, but in high winds and backwards flight it'll give up.
10-26-2009 03:54 AM
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brandov2
Senior Heliman
Location: queen creek az us

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Its fine..I have never had a problem with backwards flight Tail blow out or in tailslides..People always say it wont hold but Mine holds just fine..Not saying it holds as good as 520 611 but the 401 works great also..Depends on what blades and how its setup makes more of a difference..
10-26-2009 03:59 AM
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Spitfire1
Key Veteran
Location: Perth Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I have fibreglass blades not CF, could that make the tail blow out in backward flight?

ALso my limits are at 120% and I have on the round servo horn on the 9254 (8-9mm from the center of servo to ball)

Should I try and get the limits down to 100% by useing a bigger horn? or try and get more gain by decreaing the travel?

Also Im not sure about the old school method of setting up the tail rudder with possitive in the center as this reduces the amount of left rudder travel, and buy my logic if your useing negative collective you need as much travel left as right, so by my logic the most travel in both directions regardless of where the center position is.

To better explain, if you set you gyro up the old way to hold in a hover when not in HH is not logical, because if most of your flying is inverted then your better getting it to hover inverted in Non HH, hope that makes sense.

It holds in tail slides and backwards, its when Im turning (hurricane style) only not that hard.
10-26-2009 04:13 AM
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brandov2
Senior Heliman
Location: queen creek az us

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		As long as the limit is 100 or above that should be fine..Fiberglass blades should be ok too.. Try turning gain up a bit ,and aslo maybe turn up limit more till it binds a bit wont hurt it on the ground to bind at the limits a bit..Wont do it in the air.
If it wont bind at a full 140 try extending the arm a bit till it does...
Sometimes if gain is to low it wont hold that well either..I have used a 401 with the stock trex plastic blades..It should hold fine even in hi speed tailslides etc..It even should hold fine in funnels and hurricanes..
Hope that helps
10-26-2009 04:20 AM
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ErichF
Elite Veteran
Location: Odessa, FL 33556 (Tampa Area)

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Also Im not sure about the old school method of setting up the tail rudder with possitive in the center as this reduces the amount of left rudder travel, and buy my logic if your useing negative collective you need as much travel left as right, so by my logic the most travel in both directions regardless of where the center position is.

Yeah, you really should preset some anti-torque pitch in the tail blades, typically 5-8°. Putting negative pitch in the main blades doesn't reverse the torque on the airframe. Typical CW rotor direction will always have torque assisting left yaw direction, regardless of main blade pitch. Hence the need for more right rudder pitch than left.

Erich
10-26-2009 04:30 AM
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FlyingHigh450
Elite Veteran
Location: Macomb,Mi

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Spitfire1 Is 401 OK for backward flying??

Im just wondering if I need a more expensive gyro, I can fly backward inverted in a straight line but when I turn the tail blows out into a piro, it happens when Im in the middle of a backward inverted turn and add any collective to stop the heli form descending, I dont have to be doing a funnel or anything too extreme, it doesent seem to take much and the tail blows out.
Depends on how "you" fly backwards and how long of tail slides "you" do .Everyones flying is not the same so its good for some and not for others.It will hold as long as your not ripping in fast backwards flight or doing a crazy high tail slide.If you like doing alot of fast backwards flying then get one of the high end gyros like a Mini G, Spartan DS760,GY520 .There only $20-$30 bucks more or the same price,you can use Futaba servos with them too if thats what you have..I tryed doing really fast stuff with the GY401 and she let go quite a few times.I seen the 401 let go a bunch of times when pushed hard on a buddys heli too,the gyro has its limits and once you go fast enough you'll find it ..

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
10-26-2009 04:50 AM
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Spitfire1
Key Veteran
Location: Perth Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yep, Im moveing into new territory with backward flying, Ive been flying backward inverted in a straight line for a while now with no probs, but now Im trying to do circuts and banked turns its asking alot from the tail, specially on bail outs when things go ugly, then the tail just goes into a spin, its not very nice when it happens, Ive been lucky so far but Im haveing to do everything so high up incase the tail goes Im haveing trouble with orientation.

Its a double edged sword, haveing to do things so high up and far away causes the errors that lead to the bail out, but any lower and closer in and theres no time to bail out it just ploughs into the ground costing me $250 in crash repairs!
10-26-2009 05:35 AM
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Spitfire1
Key Veteran
Location: Perth Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		The other possibility is the Im running is a Tonic z20a 980 kv motor with a 22t pinion, on face value it doesent seem to bogg that much when I do flips and a couple of tic tocs, but maybe being such a low kv with such a steep pinion to get "2900ish" headspead its dropping rpm enough to let the tail go.

I would say it doesent quite have the same power as the stock 1600 kv motor did, I thought it was worth a try as I had it lieing around from an another heli and it dident seem that low on power to cause any issues, maybe I should atleast buy the correct motor to rule out bogging.
10-26-2009 06:09 AM
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Aaron29
Key Veteran
Location: Bossier City, LA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		My guess is something is not right in the setup. The 401 holds reasonably well. It will blow out at higher speeds but not general backwards flying.

Also ensure your tail is more or less near the oncoming wind. If you have a large sideways angle it will blow out more readily.

-Aaron
10-26-2009 06:12 AM
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itsjojo
Veteran
Location: North East Pennnsylvania

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I worked hard on backward flight this year. I sucked at it and now I am very pleased with my efforts. I also have gone back to flying my 450, 500 as well as my 600 and 700. I specifically fly all of them to get a comparison. My 450 has the last 401. I've recently upgradded them all to the Futaba 520. The 450 w/401 I fly very hard an it is the only one that does blow out sometimes. I agree with the guys here that the 401 gyro is a great gyro. It just can't handle the hard stuff all the time.

For 2 years I have had problems with the 450 holding with this 401 gyro. It took that long to set it up properly. Last month I just worked on the 450 and tested it constantly and out of the blue and now it holds fine with the 401. Blows out at the bottom of 500 ft tail slides. Most of my problems were "rpm" and "setup" issues. On my 450 since day one I couldn't do much 3d or tic-tocs. The stock rpm on the Trex 450 Se V2 just sucked. I am at 4s set up and even with that the 60% throttle curve had to go. I run 100 90 100 at 3200 head speed officially tached, to make this little bird come alive. Another thing I did is match my collective the fast head speed. My pops now take a instant-quick jab of the collective stick to full throw. This is how I set up all my helis. I didn't even check the +/- pitch settings with a gauge. I simply checked them in inverted or upright climb outs and how much pop I got. I am probably running around 9 or 10 degrees of pitch with the high head speed.

Another valuable thing I did is learn the right way to set up my tail. I set my gyro and slider horn at 90 and feed in a good bit of positive with the gyro in rate mode. In rate mode I hover my heli and want to see a slight right hand yaw. I retest this with the gyro set to "0" only getting light on the skids.

All in all I think most of the problem was the low head speed with massive pitch. The tail just didn't have enough air pressure to bite.
Hope this help out a little.
Jojo

Trex 500esp 600N Pro & 700 Nitro Dx7
10-26-2009 08:03 AM
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Spitfire1
Key Veteran
Location: Perth Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		It could be a headspead thing, I hope I get it sorted because flying backwards inverted circiuts will make me look really cool at the feild, its the coolest thing Ive been able to do so far.
Tic tocs would be good, but they dont seem to work in real life like on the sim, Ive all but given up on tic tocs these days.
At the moment every time the tail lets go Im being forced into learning piroflips way before Im ready for that kindof adrenaline rush. Ive been lucky so far and managed to gather it up before elspludgo, but my lucks bound to run out sooner or later if I dont get it fixed.
10-26-2009 09:17 AM
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colsy
Elite Veteran
Location: Cambridge, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hmmm in my 401 day's, i used to do tail slides from horrendous height and lots of fast backward flight and never had any problems with them letting go.

Headspeed/setup, or maybe a bad or 'going bad' Tail servo.

Col.

Only Quote From Experience.
10-26-2009 09:58 AM
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MartyH
Elite Veteran
Location: Cincinnati

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		401 will work fine backwards. You might have to tweak a little to really keep it solid because it will blow out of not careful. It'll take a little finess at high speed but it does work ok. A higher end gyro and higher toque tail servo will make it easier though.

Marty,
Raptor 90 3D, Freya and more
10-26-2009 01:08 PM
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naked painter
Veteran
Location: Mid glamorgan uk

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I've got 401s on my evo and 600e. Both blow out if the headspeed bogs doing backwards flight etc..
10-26-2009 01:37 PM
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FlyingHigh450
Elite Veteran
Location: Macomb,Mi

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Spitfire1 Yep, Im moveing into new territory with backward flying, Ive been flying backward inverted in a straight line for a while now with no probs, but now Im trying to do circuts and banked turns its asking alot from the tail, specially on bail outs when things go ugly, then the tail just goes into a spin, its not very nice when it happens, Ive been lucky so far but Im haveing to do everything so high up incase the tail goes Im haveing trouble with orientation.
IMO if I were you I would get a Spartan DS760,Futaba 520,Mini G if your going to try new stuff like that.The GY401 will do it all but like I said,it has its limit and will blow out when you find it.Also the first few times it does blow out it brings you down to where you don't wanna try it anymore cause your scared the tail will let go..

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
10-26-2009 03:11 PM
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brandov2
Senior Heliman
Location: queen creek az us

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Look up the origanal sandiego Jason Krause funfly 2001.. That was a 401 and a 9253 in a 90 ..Did not seem to have any hold problems tailslides or anything else..They Hold well if setup right with decent blades..The 520 and 611 may be better but the 401 still holds its own
10-29-2009 11:58 PM
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colsy
Elite Veteran
Location: Cambridge, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
I've got 401s on my evo and 600e. Both blow out if the headspeed bogs doing backwards flight etc

Any gyro will 'let go' if the main rotor rpm is compromised. !!

Col.

Only Quote From Experience.
10-30-2009 12:02 AM
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cdrking
Elite Veteran
Location: Seattle

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		If you manage the sticks it will only blow out it the really demanding maneuvers in the wind. A 401 is fine and will take you a long way in your flying. If you want to really learn to fly the tail and manage the sticks correctly stick with the 401.

The 401 is an excellent gyro. When you start doing a lot of traveling piro flips in the wind is where the 401 doesn't piro as consistently as a lot of other gyros.

I see a lot of guys flying who could do fine with a 401 if the stick management was there.

Jeff

To hover is divine, the alternative is rather PLANE.
10-30-2009 12:05 AM
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Radio - Futaba FASST > Is 401 OK for backward flying??
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