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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Main Gear being eaten
 
 
debrooker
New Heliman
Location: Bramley UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi all, starting to get pee'd off with my Titan 50 SE (a steady stream of niggling little faults ruining my ownership experience-thats another story). My current issue is that the main gear's teeth are slowly being worn down.

In the picture below, the yellow circles mark out a white powdery deposit which i believe is plastic from the main gear. If you look (not in picture) at the gear from the side, the teeth are worn at the top and pretty unblemished at the bottom.

The green circle shows a rather large gap between the pinion and gear, which may/may not be connected.



This a relatively new kit and their is no slop or play in the main shaft or starter shaft.

A friend at my club has this exact problem and his has been sent back to the distributor who have no explanation - it may be the frames.

Has anyone encountered similar issues like this before?

Many thanks

Darren

Raptor 50 Titan SE - CSM720, DS610s and DS620
DS450 - GY401B, MKS480, MG90s
HBFP
10-25-2009 08:32 PM
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Damper
Senior Heliman
Location: Point Blank TX USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Personally I have not encountered this problem.
Something is not right 1) the engine is not aligning up with the started shaft pulling the pinion gear forward.
2) pinion and clutch bell is not screwed in correctly or alignment is incorrect.

I would disassemle the all these and scrunize the parts and assembly maybe this help to find the problem. I know this is frustrating but it does give a better understanding mechanically.

Full Throttle Spooning Leads To Forking
10-25-2009 08:54 PM
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Dino Spadaccini
Key Veteran
Location: USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		top cap

make sure the new bearing slash cap that goes on top of the pinion gear is still in place this is why they came up with that bearing that screws down on top of the pinion to stop that problem in the raptor se and regular titan kits.


if its not installed you put allot of side load in that pinion bearing and it will wear causing that to happen

Team Thunder Tiger
Team Futaba
CY Enterprises
Morgan fuel
10-26-2009 02:46 AM
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GREYEAGLE
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Pretty hard to tell from these view's

If there is a problem it could only be in the angular alignment axis.

Are you indicating that the top of the main gear teeth are thinner than the bottom?

The view of the pinion is a bit mis leading also, as the pinion has machined bevel edges on the top and bottom. Hard to see the root clearance.

If you feel you have a axial run out or angular mis- alignment it's pretty easy to witness.

Take some type writer white out correction fluid and paint the pinion,

Then spin the gear and the wear pattern will appear as the white stuff wears off during rotation. It will tell you if the gear is flanking and what the contact pattern is.

It could also be a loose screw in the hub attachment flange if they are all not equally tight, it could cause the main gear to have a bit of axial run out.

Could also be one of the lower plastic frame bearing sockets has fretted causing the bearing to shift - it take's quite a radial load tossing out the gear alignment.

Had any bearing problem's ???

Is their a ledge mid way down on the tooth contact face of the main gear ? Looking as if it has a artificial bottom or root ??

greyeagle
10-26-2009 03:06 AM
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S Bell
Senior Heliman
Location: Nova Scotia Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		A poorly cut pinion can do this. Not saying that is the problem but I did have a similar occcurance with a V-II when they first came out many years ago.

Sometimes people mark the teeth installing the pinion into the bell with pliers which can cause the wear you speak of.

The machine normally has notable backlash so not to worry on that finding. I'd check or consider the other stuff mentioned like runout, alignment and assembly.

Stephen

Raptors are everywhere
10-26-2009 11:29 AM
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SC Raptorman
Veteran
Location: South Carolina

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Im finding in some of the kits when you slide the motor in and tighten it down, the start shaft will be in a bind which in return will put pressure on the main gears . I drill the mounting holes aliitle and work with the motor to get a free turning start shaft . This may be something you overlooked. Just my 2 cents.

Oh what a feeling flying 3D can be
10-26-2009 12:10 PM
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S Bell
Senior Heliman
Location: Nova Scotia Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yes SC Raptorman that can be an issue since the start shaft support is so much better and tighter. It is less forgiving to engine misalignment. I leave the engine beam mount bolts loose until the engine mount is fitted to the airframe. There is some minor play here which aids in lateral positioning before the beam bolts are tightened down. If there is a fore/aft alignment issue or extra movement is needed than your method should be an aid.

Raptors are everywhere
10-26-2009 02:22 PM
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Airwolf2009
New Heliman
Location: Hampshire, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi

I am the fellow local flying member that debrooker was referring to. I had the same problem with worn gears on a new Titan SE. I sent my mechanics back to the UK distributor (Amerang) and they can't tell me what the problem is either - they are however being very generous and replacing the frames and gears to see if that resolves the problem. However I'd like to understand what caused the problem in the first place, when my kit arrives back I will follow some of the tips in this post during reassembly and then see if the problem reoccurs.

Attached is a photo of my main gear at the end of its last flight.

10-27-2009 11:15 AM
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S Bell
Senior Heliman
Location: Nova Scotia Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		That's just palin nasty, you have the correct 85 tooth main gear and 10 tooth pinion count? It should be stamped on the plastic gear. On the other hand it must be something really strange if the distributor cannot find it.

Raptors are everywhere
10-27-2009 11:47 AM
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Airwolf2009
New Heliman
Location: Hampshire, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yes - as soon as I saw the main wear 180 degrees on either side I checked the pinion and main gear - 10T & 85T repectively - I even marked a tooth on each and counted the number of teeth!
10-27-2009 11:56 AM
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GREYEAGLE
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux City IA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Excellent photo

Gear was installed or set with way to much root clearance.

Most likly nothing wrong with the original gear. or the frame.

Side profile is a dead give away, mesh was set so loose you could have thrown a cat threw em. You can actually see where the second artificial root was forming in the bottom of the tooth profile or artificial bottoming ledge from the pinion tooth crest.

!st check to see of the lower bell and pinion bearing is firm in the seat;s of the frame.

d
Install new girth gear on hub and tighten hub bolts equally.

Install motor, mount ect, let the comonent some what float. Slightly loosen up screws around start shaft bearings.

Spin main gear and listen for tight area and mark it.

Set your mesh to the high spot.

greyeagle
10-27-2009 09:33 PM
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debrooker
New Heliman
Location: Bramley UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		A big thankyou to everyone who has replied so far to this thread.

Last night i stripped down the raptor and essentially rebuilt the heli. Whilst doing this I had a good look at the meshing between the pinion and main gear and I just cannot see how the wear on the teeth that both airwolf and myself are seeing is unavoidable. The teeth on the pinion are short and stubby and the main gear's grooves are quite slender and the meshing really doesn't look brilliant.

I trippled checked the seating of the bearings and examined them all checking for any notchiness - there is none.

There is quite a bit of play available for the main gear on the one way clutch shaft - enough to allow the main gear to touch the top of the frames - other club memebers who own other Raptor 50's say they have no such play on theirs.

Can anyone explain the differences between the new pinion used on Titan SE and previous Raptors (PV0670 and PV0380) and also the new clutch shaft used on the Titan SE and previous Raptors (PV0673 and PV0020)?

Once again many thanks for your help

Raptor 50 Titan SE - CSM720, DS610s and DS620
DS450 - GY401B, MKS480, MG90s
HBFP
10-29-2009 10:07 AM
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S Bell
Senior Heliman
Location: Nova Scotia Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Can anyone explain the differences between the new pinion used on Titan SE and previous Raptors (PV0670 and PV0380) and also the new clutch shaft used on the Titan SE and previous Raptors (PV0673 and PV0020)?



I'll try:

The difference in the T-SE pinion is that it has threads on the end for the new threaded bearing hub plus a dowel section machined next to the threads for critical and precise fittment to the new SE clutch bell. The new T-SE bell has a machined smooth area above its threads to mate with the doweled area on the pinion. I've installed two of these systems on older Titans and they are fine. The T-SE start shaft needs to fit the new bearing and if memory serves the older one was relieved (thinner) in that area.

Generally speaking the T-SE pinion/start-shaft area is pretty strong but a trick I use which is in no way related to the meshing problem is to install fuel tubing between the new T-SE middle bearing inner-race and the top start shaft bearing inner-race. The fuel tubing which is slid over the start shaft is a tiny bit long so as to be gently squeezed between the two bearing inner races. The two bearings will never spin on the shaft and loctite is not required. Long term shaft wear is definately reduced. The new middle bearing outer race is kind of a bit more secure in position, as a side benefit when you stop to think about it.

This cheap and easy mod needs to be done with the frames split.

Raptors are everywhere
10-29-2009 11:51 AM
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Raptor Pilot
Senior Heliman
Location: Northern Ireland

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Airwolf2009, from your picture of the main gear i can see straight away that the mesh depth of the main gear and the pinion is not deep enough. Now, as i have 4 Raptors and have never ever had this problem, it can only be that there is some manafacturing defect in the main frame or that a bearing on the main shaft or start shaft is collapseing. On the raptor you cant change the depth of mesh of the two gears as it is fixed. If your engine was slightly more foward in the frame it would pull the clutch bell foward with it and in turn pull the gears slightly apart but when you start the engine it would be dragging the clutch something serious so you would know there is a problem. I cant say excatley what is causeing this as the raptor is pretty much a fool proof heli where everything lines up its self and falls into place.

If it doesnt move and its meant too... use WD 40. If it moves and its not meant too...use duct tape!
11-01-2009 01:25 AM
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Pull-n-Pitch
Key Veteran
Location: Mt. Dora, Florida (USA)

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		debrooker-
After reading your post on the gear problem I am truly impressed that you have received input from the "Best of the Best" on RR on Raptors.

Keep us posted on your repairs and maybe other Raptor 50 SE guys will have something to look for (or avoid) during the assembly stage. I had a chance to fly one, the helicopter is a excellent flying machine!

Don't let this little problem get you down, That Raptor is built to fly and fly and fly, good luck buddy....

S.Bell,Dino, SCRaptorman excellent responses.....

Pull-n-Pitch
11-02-2009 02:39 AM
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debrooker
New Heliman
Location: Bramley UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi all,

just another post of thanks to all. I've stripped down the heli, checked over (had to replace a clutch lining) and have reassembled. Due to family commitments I haven't had a chance to fly it yet and its also a been a bit breezy in the UK this weekend.

Also, airwolf2009 has his Raptor back in the air and by all accounts has been giving it some so hopefully he will be able to report some good news in the not too distant future.

Thanks again

Darren

Raptor 50 Titan SE - CSM720, DS610s and DS620
DS450 - GY401B, MKS480, MG90s
HBFP
11-02-2009 09:02 AM
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Airwolf2009
New Heliman
Location: Hampshire, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi everyone,

Thanks for all your posts - I am amazed by the amount of support we are getting on this forum.

I received my Raptor main mechanics back from Amerang (the Thunder Tiger UK distributor) last Friday. They have given me a new set of frames to try (also a new main gear and tail rotor gear) but have left the original metal pinion - I assume they believe the issue may have been with the frames. Interestingly the orginial frames had a serial number on the side (just below the tailboom support hole on the header tank side) and yet the new ones have no such identifier and yet look exactly the same in all other aspects.

Therefore I spent about 4 hours doing a complete rebuild on Friday evening - note that as I was checking over the parts before re-assembly I found the ballrace in the end of the topcap bearing retainer had come loose. The bearing comes pre-fitted in the topcap and the assembly instructions do not suggest the use of any form of retaining compound. Anyway I have now seated the bearing using some green loctite bearing compound which I think is worth doing when you first build the heli.

In the UK we have had a lot of stormy weather this past weekend so I have only managed about 2 tankfulls of fuel - however looking very closely at the main gear I can see no wear at the moment and I am sure that last time I was already getting some noticeable markings.

I won't be able to fly for a couple of weeks now but will report back as soon as I can after a few more tanks through the system.

Thanks.
11-02-2009 10:19 AM
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Damper
Senior Heliman
Location: Point Blank TX USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I am glad that Thunder tiger helped u out. I have two rappy 50's and they are great and reliable. Good investment for me.

Full Throttle Spooning Leads To Forking
11-02-2009 08:18 PM
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schucb
Senior Heliman
Location: Minnetonka, MN 55345

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Maybe you need an 86t to tighten up the mesh??

Brian
11-04-2009 02:50 AM
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aaronredbaron
Senior Heliman
Location: West Linn, OR, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		mine wore really badly like this too on the first flight. After close inspection and speaking with a friend who is a former TT pilot, we realized I had used the washer under the fan hub. It appeared to show it on the engine in the manual, so I used it. After splitting the frames to confirm the threaded bearing support on the pinion was still together (it was), and re-building the heli without the washer, it appears to be all freed up.... keep your fingers crossed for me, I'm about to go do another test flight

wow, 2008 was a crappy year! Oh well, I'm goin flying :)
11-04-2009 05:39 PM
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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Main Gear being eaten
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