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JR-Spektrum . E-flite . Fast Lad Performance

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e-Electric Motors & Controllers > What weighs less: Kontronik 120HV or Castle Creations Phoenix 110HV???
 
 
jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
ReadyHeli states that the Kontronik 120HV weighs "108g with cables" which equates to 3.8oz. The Castle Creations site says the Phoenix 110HV weighs "5.3oz (150g)"

It appears then that the Kontronik ESC weighs less, but is there any fudging of these numbers by Kontronik (like trimming the wires real short) to get these numbers?

Is it true that the Kontronik ESC is really 42 grams (or ~1.5oz) less than the Castle Creations ESC, yet they are of comparable amperage? How is this possible?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-17-2009 03:27 AM
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MrMel
rrProfessor
Location: Lidingo, Sweden (GMT+1)

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Huge heatsink on the CC, and I actually think CC's weight is without cables so it might even differ more.

My site: http://heli.dacsa.net
10-17-2009 08:51 AM
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MrMel
rrProfessor
Location: Lidingo, Sweden (GMT+1)

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reference:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1123934

My site: http://heli.dacsa.net
10-17-2009 08:52 AM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Looks then like there might be some "funny business" with the Castle Creations specs.

How is it possible that Kontronik ESC's weigh so much less than the competition?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-17-2009 02:58 PM
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MrMel
rrProfessor
Location: Lidingo, Sweden (GMT+1)

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Different design?
look at the PowerJazz, its 280 grams + cables or something like it.
Even then the powerJive 120HV wouldbe pretty much the same in ratings.

Jive is VERY small for its amp-size.

My site: http://heli.dacsa.net
10-17-2009 03:09 PM
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Band1086
Senior Heliman
Location: Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Small and light, CC HV85 weighs about 4.25-4.5 oz. The Jive 80HV weighs about 3-3.25 (both with deans), but you pay for that small size and weight savings...
But also the Jive has a built in 5A bec, a big plus for guys who aren't running a high drain servo setup.
10-17-2009 05:12 PM
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duke666
Veteran
Location: Hampshire, UK

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Quote 
But also the Jive has a built in 5A bec, a big plus for guys who aren't running a high drain servo setup.

And for those with a high drain set up too. It will easily provide 10 amp peaks. 3 x 8717, BLS 251, V - Bar.

Duke

OOOPPS............
10-17-2009 05:21 PM
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Band1086
Senior Heliman
Location: Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Well, they claim a 15A peak but only a 5A continuous. In my V-Bar instruction manual they claim possibly 20A peaks, but that would probably be under the most extreme conditions. But if the built in bec is working for you...cool, it does save a little weight and bulk!
10-17-2009 06:54 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I think the power bus in the V-bar is made for a maximum of 20A peak. The internal BEC in the Jive is probably more than sufficient for 3 x 8717 servos plus whatever gyro servo you want to use.

Quote 
Small and light, CC HV85 weighs about 4.25-4.5 oz. The Jive 80HV weighs about 3-3.25 (both with deans), but you pay for that small size and weight savings...

Are these your actual measurements, or are you just taking them off a website?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-17-2009 07:48 PM
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Band1086
Senior Heliman
Location: Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Castle is personal experience, the Kon 80HV I got off readyheli.
I agree that the internal Bec on the 80HV is probably sufficient for
the average pilot out there, but here's the quote from the V-bar manual:
"With 4 digital servos and the VBar, the current consumption of the receiver unit will be at least 50% more than when using a conventional
flybar rotor head. You may need to adjust power supply for your receiver accordingly.
The central unit houses the microprocessor and the power/voltage
supply for the V-Bar. The supply voltage is 3.5 to 9 V. Sufficient
power must be available to the central unit at all times during operation, also during peaks. The three swashplate servos ALONE may jointly draw up to 20A peaks. You must use wires which are suitably
dimensioned. (Two leads recommended to connect to the receiver.)
You must insure that the power supply used has sufficient capacity."

Now the only reason I even mention all this is because back when I was flying Fury Extremes I tried using an 'Ultimate BEC' from a 2000
2 cell Lipo. I had just gotten the lipo and needed to reduce the voltage to the receiver. I was flying pretty hard that flight, but I was staying up around 50-100 ft. I started to do a tail slide
and about 50ft up I pushed full forward on the elevator stick, it wouldn't pull out, it went straight in on the tail. It felt like the batt went dead. But when I got it back on the table the batt still had plenty of power (I had just charged it before the flight). And the servos then were working fine. So that made me think the bec wasn't supplying enough contiuous current. And I know this is a different situation but that scared me enough to shy away from using becs to power high draw servos. After that I started using the 'Arizona' and no probems since. Just a bit experience to hopefully save someone else from a needless crash.
10-17-2009 10:23 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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A BEC that doesn't put out enough current is definitely a recipe for disaster. But something makes me think that the Kontronik BEC is sufficient since they do seem to underrate their numbers. I'm just wondering if they do the same with the weights of their ESCs.

Band1086, What did you replace your Fury Extremes with?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-17-2009 11:11 PM
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Band1086
Senior Heliman
Location: Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Stratus's, then when the batt tech. became good enough, IonX & X2 then I got a 700 kit and made it an E out of the box, then a 600E, and finally another 700E. The last five I still have. All fly very nicely.
10-17-2009 11:45 PM
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dogg5306
Veteran
Location: Brussels, Belgium

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@Band1086
What you don't say is that Kontronik HV80 performance is improved when coupled to a heatsink which isn't delivered when you buy it...
So much more amps...

Is that impacting the included BEC? Don't know... but most ehelis top pilots (i.e. Mikado) are using it...
(That said Daniel Jetshin has alwas used an additional battery...)


MA Stratus
2*Hirobo Turbulence D3 EX
Henseleit TDR (not delivered yet)
10-18-2009 01:02 AM
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Band1086
Senior Heliman
Location: Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Yes, from what I understand an added heat sink does increase the amp load it can handle. And the built in bec is a cool feature. But, just wondering if Mikado makes a 3D machine any bigger than a 600. I think
the 90 class machines probably load the servos harder than the smaller machines. In any case, after that crash, I use the arizona and now the newer kiwi and have have zero problems. Incidentally, an excellent test is to use on board a 'volt magic' to test "low peak voltages". Then fly several hard flights and the volt magic will tell you if you've had any LPV's...ever. It's a great device. Check it out at 'voltmagic.com'. Sometimes you can't even tell if you've had low voltage spikes, but the voltmagic will always catch them!

[quote]So much more amps...

Is that impacting the included BEC?

This is a very interesting question...it would be a good test.
10-18-2009 02:23 AM
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helicraze
Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria - Australia

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A lot of us and myself run the jive 80HV and bls451 or 8717 off the jive BEC.

Even Jan henseleit and his team racked up over 1000 flights with this internal jive BEC, you can trust it as much as any other component on the heli that may fail at any time.
10-18-2009 08:22 AM
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Band1086
Senior Heliman
Location: Kennewick, Wa. USA

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Sounds like a great unit!!
10-21-2009 07:48 AM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Yes, but the Kontronik Jive 80HV costs $400 and the Jive 120HV costs $500. By comparsion, the Castle Creations 110A HV unit costs around $200.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-21-2009 01:27 PM
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dogg5306
Veteran
Location: Brussels, Belgium

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@jrockstuart
Not entirerly true as you need to add the price and maybe the weight of a decent BEC (one that can handle 3 8717 servos and tail one )

It depends on how much you do value your eheli too... should we bet on quality or price

I would say both of them... and Kontronik does rule in that field. Full stop.


MA Stratus
2*Hirobo Turbulence D3 EX
Henseleit TDR (not delivered yet)
10-21-2009 03:07 PM
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Band1086
Senior Heliman
Location: Kennewick, Wa. USA

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How does the Jive hold the head speed from the start of the flight to the end, does it have a good gov mode like the Jeti Spin that ACTUALLY WORKS, or do you have to grossly over gear it as compared to the head speed calculators, like some other ESC's?
10-21-2009 04:34 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I haven't flown the Jive yet, but for what it's worth, the governor on the Jazz works great as far as I am concerned.

For my Scorpion HK221-6, I went from a 11T pinion running at 100%-95%-100% V curves to a 12T pinion running at a governed 80%, and it holds head speed perfectly through every maneuver with utmost precision unless I pull so much pitch that the battery cannot compensate. I think the limit for my system is the old 30C batteries I'm using, and with newer 45C batteries, I'm pretty sure the Jazz would hold head speed to within a few hundred RPMs through any maneuver.

I have heard of some issues with the Jive being too aggressive with the governor function, but the V6.0 and later programming has apparently solved this problem.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-21-2009 05:27 PM
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e-Electric Motors & Controllers > What weighs less: Kontronik 120HV or Castle Creations Phoenix 110HV???
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