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Ace Hobby . Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Sizzle test
 
 
pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

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I've used the temp gun in the past but having soem doubts as to it's accuracy (as opposed to repeatability)
Today I had a go at the simple saliva test (before preddie went down)
I foudn that rubbing saliva just below the carb on the crankcase side and it stayed there and very slowly dried. BUT if I rubbed saliva on the carb intake manifold (side) it sizzled immediately... a distance of 1 inch away..

The plug looked perfect and preddie was flying well..good power except when I tried Idle 2 at 1800 RPM (6.28GR) when it bogged through manoeuvers (stock 231)

pgk
10-14-2009 08:03 PM
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rbort
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Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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You have to use the right spot

If you lick your finger and rub it on the fins of the motor its going to sizzle right away every day.

The spot I use is on the crankcase slant right in front of the carb (inline with carb to towards the front of the model).

If you check the same spot every time, then there should be no sizzle there. The engine is not all at the same temp as you well know, where the crankcase is about the mid 100's the head could be a good 100F hotter.

Seeing the spit stay on and slowly dry is a good thing which tells you the motor is running cool. Its an easy quick test to let you know that the engine is OK.

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights
10-15-2009 12:33 AM
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jrockstuart
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Location: Allen, Texas

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High Technology at it's finest. But if it works, it works.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-15-2009 02:11 AM
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JuanRodriguez
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Location: Rochester, New York

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Quote 
High Technology at it's finest. But if it works, it works

Folks were using good o'le spit long before Petrolium Jelly or KY lubricant was invented !!!
10-15-2009 07:28 PM
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shawmcky
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Location: Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Team- unbiased opinion,no experts here just trying to help thats all.K.I.S.S principle upheld here
10-15-2009 07:54 PM
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imnxtc
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Location: Dawson

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ROFL
10-15-2009 08:24 PM
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Excalibur
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Location: Destination: Earth

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Spit instead of KY?!? NO THANKS! I'll stick to putting KY Jelly on my toast!

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore
10-16-2009 05:15 AM
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jrockstuart
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Location: Allen, Texas

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Ummm...

That's not what KY Jelly is for.

Didn't your parents teach you about the birds and the bees?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-16-2009 05:21 AM
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Excalibur
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Location: Destination: Earth

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Didn't your Mom ever make you a peanut butter and KY Jelly samich? =)

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore
10-17-2009 05:20 AM
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broggyr
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Location: Naugy, CT

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This thread totally took a wrong turn somewhere LOL

- Brian
irony [ay-ruh-nee', ay-er-nee'] adj.: Like goldy or bronzy, except made of iron
10-17-2009 05:31 AM
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jrockstuart
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Location: Allen, Texas

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Quote 
Didn't your Mom ever make you a peanut butter and KY Jelly samich? =)

That's disgusting, Excalibur.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-17-2009 05:41 AM
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Dr. Fibinotchi
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Location: Sioux Falls SD

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uhh

I am not sure why a gun would not work. How in the world would you know if you are 220-260. What is this spit actually showing other than you are above 212? Could this be any less in- accurate! Sorry, but I disagree to this method completly. This is not the 50's and we are not rednecks with straw hats. Your not seeing anything with this method and you have no idea where you are heat wise. Weather you don't trust your gun beeing accurate or whatever.. atleast you have a number to base it off of. This is constructive criticism please take it as such.


-C
10-17-2009 07:19 PM
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jrockstuart
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Location: Allen, Texas

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Quote 
This is not the 50's and we are not rednecks with straw hats.

The boiling point of your saliva is going to be higher than that of pure water due to the principal of "boiling point elevation". Boiling point elevation is approximated by the forumula: T=Km where T is the rise in temperature, K is a constant, and m is the molal concentration of solute.

The concentration of solutes in your saliva is going to vary depending on many factors including hormonal influences and your hydration status, but since the majority of the solutes in your saliva are either sodium chloride in small concentration or large proteins (such as amylase), the overall molal concentration of solutes in the saliva is actually quite low. In essence, the composition of saliva is about 99.5% pure water. Based upon the above forumula with K for water equaling about 0.5 degrees Celsius per mole of solute, we can reasonably predict that the boiling point of saliva will be at most 1-2 degrees Celsius higher than that of pure water.

Pure water boils at 212 degrees Fahrenheit at sea level, and decrease proportional to the barometric pressure such that increased altitude and low pressure weather systems will make pure water boil at a lower temperature. If we assume that we only fly during nice weather (during high pressure weather systems) and we fly at the same field every time--and if we take into account the variability in the concentration of the solutes in saliva, I think it is safe to assume that the so-called "spit test" will give us a reasonably accurate temperature reading +/- 3 degrees Fahrenheit.

While our "spit" scale only has one mark on it at ~212 degrees Fahrenheit, I think that the actual temperature reading given by the boiling of spit may be fairly accurate. By contrast, a heat gun can give wildly differing readings depending on where it is aimed and on any ambient IR light being reflected by the material being measured or by any IR sources (such as the sun).

The real benefit of the IR gun vs all other methods is that it does not require the sensor to be in actual contact with the material being measured. It is not necessarily going to give you the most accurate reading.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-17-2009 07:40 PM
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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Spit test

The point of the spit test if to give you an OK that your engine is not hot, or to tell you that it IS too hot.

Granted yes you don't know if you're running 220 or 260, but its not important. Different days your engine will run hotter or cooler, I flew today and had no idea what temp I was running as I never checked it. In any case all the spit test is doing is showing you that you getting too hot or that you're already too hot.

It goes something like this:

Land, shutoff, lick your finger and rub it on the side of the crankcase where the slant is just in front of the carb:

No sizzle, your good, next observe spit
Spit burns off within a second or two, you're running hot but not too hot.
Spit stays longer you're running fairly cool.
If you can leave your finger on the crankcase for a few seconds, you're running coldish.

Take it as a Go/NoGO test. If you land and your spit sizzles off, then definately that's a NoGo, if it doesnt and doesn't look unusually hot from what you've seen in the past, then fly on.

Knowing exactly what temp it runs at like 223, 237, 252, or 265 doesn't really matter. Sure its nice, but its not the end all of flight if you don't.

Here is another analogy for it, the red temp light in your car, or the temp guage. If you have a light, and the light is not on, you drive on, whether the temp is a, b, or c and it varies with the hotness of the day. If you have a guage, it shows you a temp of a, b, or c, and you will see the temp going up in traffic on a hot day and going down when you go downhill. You don't reach the red line marked on the guage, so you drive on. Same thing as the spit test.

If you hate it, don't use it. When I land and its a hot day and I don't have my temp gun in my hand, I lick my finger and rub it on my crank, and with experience I can tell about where I am based on how the spit reacts and the temp I feel on my finger. Works for me, if you want to, use it, if you don't want to, go buy a temp gun and strap it to your wrist!

And one last thing, temp checking is most critical for me on the hottest of hot days in the summer. Now that fall/winter is here, I barely pay attention to temperatures unless something is usually wrong. Sometimes too much information takes away from the fun, like having to check your engine with a temp gun every time you land. Even if I did today and it said 200 lets say, would I change mixture to bring it up? Absolutely not, its running just fine I'm not about to start fiddling with needles. If it ain't broke, don't mess with it.

Instead, fly-on and log some more flights

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights
10-17-2009 11:33 PM
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Dr. Fibinotchi
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Location: Sioux Falls SD

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yea

After I get my needles set and measure temps on a hard flight I don't measure temps every flight when I land either.

I guess my point was that with the given altitudes that everyone flies at meaning boiling point changes and even in small detail of everyone's spit is 'diffrent' one could measure that spitting is at best a very vague indication of how hot you are. A go/ no go depending where you fly could yield very diffrent results. Ie.. Denver Co. and the coast. This is why I do not trust it.

Temp guns work well if you measure against a known temp to verify the temp is accurate for use in the field. Also they can show the exhaust temp which you should be concerned about if you run a tuned pipe or a resitrictive pipe which raises back pressure and temps.

but hey use what you want...

-Cody
10-18-2009 04:34 AM
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Excalibur
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Location: Destination: Earth

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I've been using the spit test, and a variation of it for several years now on different gas helis with good success.

Basically, I started out with just putting my thumb on the engine case under the carb and seeing how long I could hold it there. Based on how the engine was tuned and running, I found I could hold my thumb there for 1 or 2 seconds without incurring any burns. The addition of the spit test to this procedure just gives a little more info about how hot the engine is running.

Having said this, I fly at 4500 feet ASL and am in a different environment than most of you who fly at or close to sea level. I've had to learn to do things a little differently than most because of this elevation change, but so far, these techniques are working well. I do plan on installing one of the Venom Racing fixed temperature monitors to help confirm or debunk this simple test. I would have to aggree that it's important to take data from a fixed position sensor rather than a gun.

As usual, there are many ways to achieve the same results, but so far, the thumb and spit test have kept me out of trouble.

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore
10-18-2009 06:27 AM
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Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

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yea

The venom temps work well. I remember there was a problem with the batteries dying fast or they could fall out or something. Make sure you shut it off when done using it.


-C
10-18-2009 07:04 PM
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AceBird
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Location: Utica, NY USA

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If you don't use a governor you can tell if your engine is running hot by the position of the stick for hover. It will take more stick to keep it at the hover point as the engine gets hot. That is the feel you have when not using a governor (power fade).

Ace
What could be more fun?
10-18-2009 08:48 PM
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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Not like so for me

Quote 
If you don't use a governor you can tell if your engine is running hot by the position of the stick for hover. It will take more stick to keep it at the hover point as the engine gets hot. That is the feel you have when not using a governor (power fade).

In fact I find that to be the opposite. If the motor is running hot, when I turn off my gv-1 it actually speeds UP and you would need to reduce collective not increase it to maintain a hover. Any increase in rpm when I turn off the gv-1 tells me its running leaner and hotter, and any decrease in rpm when I turn off the gv-1 tells me its running richer and cooler than "normal" where "normal" is what I established previously for a hover with throttle curves that matched my gv-1 speeds at that time.

The power fade thing you are talking about is very short lived, if you run it hot for a while and get there, then its lasts for a couple of seconds before the motor changes tone and dies from seizure.

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights
10-19-2009 02:38 AM
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AceBird
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Location: Utica, NY USA

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Interesting, so on a hot day your engine has more power?

I wouldn't think that to be true.

Ace
What could be more fun?
10-19-2009 05:52 PM
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