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Heli-Max . Hobby Hut . Heli Wholesaler

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Not Again!
 
 
pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		But This I don't understand:

I was flying my Predator.. Pussy-flying it anyway..just circuits with a few stall turns and flips and loops.. all those carried out with altitude. It's no fun flying a heli like this but my confidence isn't high with these gassers..always something going wrong.

Usual absurd longwainded preflight, range checked at 50 Yards etc... everything good. Flew 3 x 10-12 min flights with no problem. My flightpack on this is a 2S2P 3400 lipo through an align reg and stepdown..it's been like that since day one almost 2 years now? (but not that many flights with the times it's hit the dirt).

The regulator is still showing a solid one green on start-up.. which usually means over 2500mah left. All cells look good.

Took off, flew a couple of circuits and a stall turn and loop then on an away leg of the next circuit as heli gets about 100-150yds out and I start a turn..no response from the tail..or the other direction..no rudder. Heli is flying straight and level 100 feet up.

I don't want to make any sudden moves without rudder.. but decide to try a gentle banked turn with cyclic - or I'm gonna have to dump anyway before it goes out of the field.

Somehow heli turns 180 and comes back towards me..straight and level. OK I'm still trying to work out what to do.. but at least it's the right direction.Still don't want to make any sudden cyclic changes with no rudder.. still no rudder.

Wondering about killing the engine and auto-ing or trying to just fly it down. Decide without rudder that the second option is best. Still thinking as heli drifts past me - still level at 100feet. I'm in idle down now and cutting throttle/collectice .. but engine isn't slowing. (yeah it's on a governor in idle down too.. but brain is having problems by now). I then intended to hit my killswitch.. but hit throttle hold instead. Throttle didn't cut at all..

..at this point heli starts a slow piro as it comes down and is now 50 yrds out over thick stuff. The only thin short grass is where I am and no way am I trying to land a rogue heli close to me!


I have heli coming down in a slow piro with moderate throttle.. OK easy after the event to say killwitch but I had enough on my mind.. landed heavily in long grass.. My almost new Scott Grey's, main shaft, one skid bow and bowed the boom sideways.

The crashed heli had rudder rod off from the servo and showing one red on the regulator and the elevator servo gears stripped too.

After getting it back to the pits the regulator is switched back on and shows 1 green again...but if I reconnect the tail servo then in one direction it binds to red... but remember the boom is bowed sideways so that its binding after impact on tail pitch travel.. Also the jammed cyclic servos with broken blades probably explain the red light of the crash victim.

There's no sign of any damaged wiring or chafing.. servo braid everywhere anyway.
Questions:

Failsafe testing shows that is set right. So a power reduction in flight should have shut the throttle servo off. If there was a catastrophic power failure that lost all power to Rx then shouldn't the cyclics have collapsed?

The tx is fine.. I flew another heli afterwards for 5 packs

All servos appear be working without load (except for the stripped gear). The tailservo is a near new BLS251.. under 12 flights

Vibration had been abolished and I'd almost lost all tail wandering too (at long last) and the engine was running really sweet today.

Ideas?

Under the circumstances there's not that much damage..but still can't decide whether to bother repairing or just sell the bits off...

EDIT:

I should add that my throttle hold is set 2 stages...tckover and cut...it was flicked all the way to cut...should have shut right off. On the ground now it responds properly

pgk
10-14-2009 05:06 PM
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smallplanes
Key Veteran
Location: Timmonsville,S.C. ,USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		We have the same kind of luck,i was flying my newly flying spectra the other day and it was flying good then all of a sudden at about 50ft it went into a very fast spin.I hit thr hold and let the heli drop very fast to the bean field i was over i push in colltive right as i got to the beans,the heli was still running but at idle i was holding the thr kill but it kept running i had forgot to bring the thr stick to low postion so the cut would not cut it.I got to the heli and turned on the choke to cut it off i saw right off the bat that the rudder push rod was off. I got it back to my house and looked it over good and the only thing it messed up was it bent the flybar just a little bit and that was it. I took the motor off and sent it to Hanson for work and i'm going to put the ball keepers on mine before i fly again. Good luck to the both of us.


Thanks

Spectra G 26cc
Jewel
2 Evo 50's
3 Trex 450's
Trex 700
Raptor50
12Z
10-14-2009 05:47 PM
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rc3po
Heliman
Location: Land of Corruption - Illinois

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		With it happening to those 2 channels, It sounds like some kind of loss of signal through the stepdown circuit. THe gyro was still holding the tail. It was not accepting inputs on either the throttle or tail channels.. But all other channels were working right?
10-14-2009 05:53 PM
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bwarkent
Senior Heliman
Location: Houston Tx

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		"through an align reg and stepdown"

I think I would find a different regulator. Do a search on align regulator failure.
10-14-2009 05:53 PM
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imnxtc
Veteran
Location: Dawson

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		What radio gear?
10-14-2009 06:15 PM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Futaba 12FG on 2.4 with a 14channel Rx
All plugs solid, all extensions still solid and heatshrunk.
Align regulators have had trouble in the past but a) better now and b) the pattern here doesn't make sense for that (to me). It works consistently on the ground right now.
Also the GV-1 was set as per Raja for B/Fsafe as well as Rx F/S and should also have dropped throttle if power went down....???

I didn't put a jewel on this one because I was wondering about selling it anyway. If I do rebuild then dual 4-cell Nihms and dual On/Off switches...(adds weight)

pgk
10-14-2009 06:40 PM
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carpman
Senior Heliman
Location: Spain

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Again you are not having much look, I feel for you!!!

I do not have the nerve to fly mine and it has not been anywhere for 2 weeks! Other things got in the way as well though and I haven't really had chance to fly anything...

The biggest problem is you are going to get a million and one answers to your question and unless you can isolate the issue it will just be another mind blowing episode of what did it

I haven't a clue so you don't have to worry about my ideas!

KEVIN
Trex 600NSP | Trex 700 | MA Spectra G
10-14-2009 07:47 PM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		..and just got delivery of 2L of castrol RX77...

pgk
10-14-2009 07:52 PM
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gramey
Senior Heliman
Location: United Kingdom

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		You have my sympathy with your crash having recently crashed my Spectra. Sorry I've got no idea what caused your problem the only observation I would make is that already mentioned about the Align regulator. I've got them on my 600's but that was simply because they came with them and until they pack up I'll use them. When that day comes I won't be replacing them with the same.
I don't use a regulator on my Spectra but there again I run an Nimh RX pack, I just have a voltage dropper on the tail servo. I had a similar thing with my Spectra, took me a couple of weeks to get the enthusiasm to rebuild it. So far I'm glad I did as it's starting to fly nicely now.
Give it a break and then go back to it when your ready would be my advice, together with getting an Arizona or Duralite regulator.

Dumb thumb specialist
10-14-2009 08:06 PM
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predatorman
Senior Heliman
Location: Falkland Islands

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I have had a near miss with a tail servo going bad, heli kept its heading at a low hover but wouldnt respond to rudder inputs...I landed and shut down and replaced the servo...and it was fine.....months later though this servo packed up. The wind was high with some drizzle and the first warning I had was the heli going sideways as I flew over a fence...'time to land' I thought. I would have autoed but the ground across the fence was bad...so I thought I would chance it...came into the hover and the tail servo totally crapped out...the Heli was heading to the fence so I had to bin it quite hard before it got totalled.

My theory is, that you need the best servo you can afford for the tail.

I use a GY401 which is meant for the 9254 servo, but budget at the time of fitting the second servo meant fitting a cheaper digital servo...a 3050 or something like that.

I am sure you do this, but I ALWAYS check the fail safe works before starting the engine...I do this with the newer radio I have but the older one used to crap out of its failsafe mode...could never work out why as most often once it was set it was fine.

You can get a dozen theorys as to what caused your crash, but truth is..is that any number of things can ruin your day. It helps to give the servos a good waggle of the sticks...and just watch the response. I had a hunch that the servo I had was slowing up...but flew anyway thinking it would be fine.

Quality takes........time!
10-14-2009 08:52 PM
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predatorman
Senior Heliman
Location: Falkland Islands

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Check your radio book too, not sure but I have a feeling that failsafes can be fooled by voltage? I dont use a battery checker on board...had a pack go duff showing a good state of charge so these indicators can lie.

Quality takes........time!
10-14-2009 08:54 PM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
I have had a near miss with a tail servo going bad, heli kept its heading at a low hover but wouldnt respond to rudder inputs

As stated it's an almost new servo because the previous one was changed while hunting for tail wandering issues. I had been checking it for heat etc.. BLS251 ain't cheap.. 12/15 flights or so only..Also all servos checked as preflight (paranoia) and range checked on them all

pgk
10-14-2009 08:57 PM
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j.8
Veteran
Location: Denmark

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi pgkevet

My rx/tx failsafe only works in case of lost signal,
not voltage drop on the akku, but a 2s lipo should have
more than enough voltage to supply the rx, if it gets
under 2,8 volt pr, cell it would have gone dead forever,
but it would still have had plenty of juice for the rx.

Perhaps it is a regulator problem.

Regards Bo
10-14-2009 09:40 PM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		..would be odd for regulator to fail that long then work afterwards..although accept not then under as much load. Certainly plenty power left in pack..and if voltage had dropped then GV-1 ought to have dropped throttle too...<sigh>

As said..If I do rebuild then dual NIHM's/dual simple switches (or just deans plugs) and no regulators etc

pgk
10-14-2009 09:55 PM
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j.8
Veteran
Location: Denmark

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi

I have used a Dualsky VR-8L regulator, it`s cheap,
and never gets hot, and I hav`nt had any problems
with it.
The FlightTech FT8AVR is the very same regulator,
just another name.
It comes with at failsafe switch, witch means that
in case of something not working in the switch, it
automatomatically switches on, and can`t be turned off.
It`s nothing fancy, just the way the wires are soldered
inside the switch.



Postet by Ozace on
http://www.archeli.com.au/forums/sh...ht=Dualsky+VR8L


Hyperion ticool switching bec rated for 4 amps sustained. unit started at 19 deg C
5v setting gives 5.13v actual

4.2 amps @ 4.64v peak reading and it stayed there
at 1 min reading were the same ,temp at 80 Deg C
at 2 min reading were the same ,temp at 100 Deg C


Hyperion ticool switching bec rated for 4 amps sustained. unit started at 20 deg C
6v setting gives 6.11v actual

5.2 amps @ 5.52v peak reading
this time i ran it at a constant 3amp load (temp concerns)
at 1 min reading were 5.76v @ 3 amps ,temp at 60 Deg C
at 2 min reading were the same ,temp at 112 Deg C and melted the shrink wrap



Align 3 amp Reg starting temp 20deg C
Start voltage 5.78v
peak reading 5.15amps @ 5.45v
Test run at 3 amp draw (units recommended ability)
3 amps @ 5.5v , at 1 min 80 deg C
same at 2 mins 106 deg C

Arizona heli reg starting temp 20 deg C
for this one i just ran the "orange" lead with the voltage set to 5.8v, As the rating is so low on the arizona i ran the first test at a 3 amp draw to get a feel for things ( too expensive to destroy).

peak test was 5.4 amps @ 5.6v
3 amps @ 5.71v for 1 min, temp 30 deg C
3amps @ 5.71v for 2 mins, temp 43 deg C

I chose not to test the gyro portion of the arizona as i figure it is only running the one component (gyro and servo) but it would contribute to heat. I figure that the rating of the unit is about right at the 3 amp mark and it looks like it will cope with peaks up to 5amps. I also decided not to run it at a loer voltage as heat would concern me.

Duralite 6v Reg starting temp 20deg C
Start voltage 5.94v
peak reading 5.50amps @ 5.67v
Test run at at max amp draw
5.5 amps @ 5.67v , at 1 min 30 deg C
same at 2 mins 38 deg C


no name 3-5 amp bec starting temp 20deg C (bought from taiwa)
Start voltage 5v setting 5.22v and 6v setting 5.92v
test run using the 6v setting
peak reading 5 amps @ 5.45v
Test run at 3 amp draw (units recommended ability)
3 amps @ 5.6v , at 1 min 65 deg C
test stopped at 1:10 sec as temp spiked and shrink wrap melted followed by vltage drop.

Koolflight Ubec 3 amp 5v bec starting temp 20deg C
Start voltage 4.97v
peak reading 4.32 amps @ 4.8v
Test run at 3 amp draw (units recommended ability)
3 amps @ 4.83 , at 1 min 60 deg C
same at 2 mins 78 deg C


Align 2 in 1 6 amp old style Reg starting temp 20deg C
Start voltage 5.76v
peak reading 5.45amps @ 5.76v
Test run at at peak amp draw
5.4 amps @ 5.75v , at 1 min 76 deg C
test stopped 1:30 heat rise to 100 deg and voltage drop


Dualsky 5v-6v Reg VR8L starting temp 20deg C
Start voltage 6.02v
peak reading 5.50amps @ 5.90v
Test run at at max amp draw
5.5 amps @ 5.89v , at 1 min 30 deg C
same at 2 mins 35 deg C

This is a ripper unit. Priced cheap, comes with a failsafe switch and duel leads.


Dualsky 5v-6v Reg VR5L starting temp 25deg C
Start voltage 5.99v
peak reading 6amps @ 5.90v
Test run at at max amp draw
5.4 amps @ 5.85v , at 1 min 60 deg C
same at 2 mins 72 deg C

this is a 5 amp unit , i decided to run it harder to see how it went(good).


Western Robotics Hercules HV 6v Reg 5 amp starting temp 25deg C
Start voltage 5.972v
peak reading 5.38amps @ 5.69v
Test run at at max amp draw
5.28 amps @ 5.69v , at 1 min 50 deg C
5.20 amps @ 5.69v at 2 mins 60 deg C


Sport BEC 5v-6v Reg 6v setting 3.5amp unit starting temp 25deg C
Start voltage 5.9v
peak reading 5.18 amps @ 5.69v
Test run at at 3.5 amp draw
3.5 amps @ 5.76v , at 1 min 40 deg C
same @ 5.74v at 2 mins 65 deg C


Emcotec dpsi rv 5v-6v Reg starting temp 22deg C
Start voltage 5.96v at 6v setting
peak reading 5.44amps @ 5.76v
Test run at at max amp draw
5.42 amps @ 5.76v , at 1 min 36 deg C
5.30 amps @ 5.74v at 2 mins 43 deg C

Regards Bo
10-14-2009 10:11 PM
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Just a quick note

The gv-1 failsafe will only work properly if you're using a 4 cell NiCD or NiMH battery. It cannot work well when you're using a 2 cell lipo with a regulator as by the time the regulator browns out to 3.6v the lipo is beyond dead and you're going to crash right away with no warning.

Quote 
I'm in idle down now and cutting throttle/collectice .. but engine isn't slowing. (yeah it's on a governor in idle down too.. but brain is having problems by now). I then intended to hit my killswitch.. but hit throttle hold instead. Throttle didn't cut at all..

Sounds to me like you ran out of electricity and lost control. its very possible your regulator failed, I've also heard bad things about the align regulator.

If you run out of power the receiver cannot go into failsafe. It only does so with the loss of signal from the TX with power still there to be able to move the servos to failsafe. Rudder failure is usually the first warning of a battery going dead or power being down. So that may have been the first clue and your last command to turn it back was the last command that worked, after that it was in free flight.

Sorry to hear about the issue, these things can happen, but put it behind you and rebuild - we love those things so much we can't see them down and busted!

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights
10-15-2009 12:56 AM
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oldfart
Elite Veteran
Location: Vancouver, Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I agree. Definitely a power delivery problem, switch, battery or regulator. As the batteries seem to have been well up to the task, I would suspect switch or requlator
10-15-2009 06:14 AM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
I agree. Definitely a power delivery problem, switch, battery or regulator. As he batteries seem to have been well up to the task, I would suspect switch or requlator

Which leaves 2 concerns. Firstly that if I hadn't got 'lucky' this heli may have chuntered along until the tank ran out..way outside the park into a built up area. Secondly that the cause may still have been an undiscovered power drain that exceeded the regulators capacity..

As I stated earler..If I rebuild then dual nihms and dual switches. But that's going to add weight..would have to be subC cells to guarantee the current needs from a single pack. But an extra 250gms isn't really much... Or a jewel...

My 3dmax has shipped for the Spectra.. so two to re-hash..

pgk
10-15-2009 06:37 AM
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Trevor G
Senior Heliman
Location: Brisbane, Australia

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I`ve had a strikingly similar thing happen to me but the heli was on the ground. I had just started to spool up and everything went dead.
I have an outrage 5000mah 7.4volt pack and an Arizona regulator.
I manually closed the throttle to kill it. As soon as the engine stopped turning it all reset and came back to life again.
The regulator LED`s went out when this happened.
The pack was charged so I cycled it anyway, stripped down the reg under a magnifier and found nothing wrong with the solder on the PCB. I fitted a failsafe to the primary coil and tested the heli in a low hover only. It did it once again right after I had just checked the plug. I found the plug boot not fully pushed on all the way and wonder if the reg got shot by the ignition coil due to that.
Long story short I can`t prove or disprove anything, I can`t replicate the problem because it seems random, and it doesn`t inspire me to fly the spectra again at all.
The first time this happened the engine kept running fine (no misfiring) but while it was the battery or regulator (whichever is the culprit) was refusing to work.
10-15-2009 07:59 AM
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predatorman
Senior Heliman
Location: Falkland Islands

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Having a runaway model is going to leave you having to explain why. Maybe a backup power pack would be good? one that plugs into it own seperate channel on the rx?

Quality takes........time!
10-15-2009 12:10 PM
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