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e-E-Flite Blade MSR CP CX MCX 400-3D > Blade 400 3D Oh what a delima, tail Vibration???
 
 
Whirl2
Heliman
Location: Olympia, WA.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Long story, I'll try and keep it simple. I have a B400 that has been heavily upgraded. LOL due in part to the fix process, talk about trickle down effect, or should that read, trickle up effect?
Here's the story so hang with me. First, I haven't been here in some time, took a few years off this sport as it got to the point where it was crazy, to much money being spent that and the time, we lost the local flying field and the ship I had was to big to fly in the back yard, so got out of it pretty much unscathed. That was like 8 years ago, now last year my family bought me a B400 for my birthday they knew I liked the sport, I say Nice, they read my mind. Fast forward 7 months after having a great time and wearing the stock eflite motor out. I found that I could up grade to a scorpion 2211-8 for not that much more, that also meant I would need a new ESC, well hell got that too a 45 amp scorpion, and while at it I knew the stock servos where on their last leg, so jumped on a set of hitec 65mgs along with a 5083 tail and 5000gyro combo, Nice, This was only the beginning of the fun. Ok, got em all installed, talk about a wake up, man o man, only thing was you could tell the frame wasn't up to the task in handling the extra power wasn't as smooth as I wanted and should have been, so to CNC I went and got a CF frame, cool that sorta helped, seems also with the extra head speed and power the stock head wasn't up to the task either, so back to CNC Jeff is a cool dude, and got the full metal sonx head and jumped on the tail unit as well. Back to the heli, all installed, LOL boy oh boy...I'm getting to know this bird pretty good by now.
Sheesh!!! guess what? I have a high speed what looks to be a harmonic vibration showing up in the tail fin, but you can hear it as well, makes your eyes all blurry if you watched it to long, this is not good, Damn!! okay figured it to be blades, The main rotors I use are Power Thunder CF, they are spot on, next was tail rotor blades so went and installed CF eflite tail rotor blades, got those mounted up, Nope, that didn't work, took the tail blades off and checked them for balance, A bit off, fixed that, Doh!! the vibration is still there.
Okay back to the beginning, I say I'm missing something. Checked motor & gear mesh, check head, check main gears, all bearings seem reasonable, beside only having like 1/2 hour on em. check tail drive gear for the belt, if you make the belt lose enough so it does not spin the tail, the vibration is gone, so back on the belt take off the tail rotor blades, BTW the head is off while I do this run up. There's an ever ever so slight of a vibration, so check to make sure there wasn't an extra twist in the belt, while I had it off I installed a CF tail boom. Oh gees, once you put on the tail blades, bingo, holy **** they're back. Ok figure it another set of blades, put on a new pair, Oh brother I get the same results I checked the tail rotors output shaft, straight as an arrow so??? WTH. I'm so frustrated I'm about to pack this heli off.. lol I have to much in it to do that. Seems simple enough, But.. Anyone else have an idea? I know hard to tell over the inter-net, just wanted to vent and see if anyone else has had anything similar come about? If by chance anyone is close to Olympia, Wa. let me know, wouldn't mind showing this off first hand. thanks for listening..

FWIW here's what it look like

10-11-2009 09:05 PM
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jason46
Senior Heliman
Location: MI

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		You said it was harmonic, does it occur at any RPM or just at high-throttle?

Did you check the spindle?
Is the fly bar centered?

May want to replace the main shaft bearings anyways and check the tail shaft bearings.

I chased a strange vibration in a trex for a while that I also thought was coming from the tail, and it turned out the headblock had a bend/wobble that I'm not sure how it got.
10-11-2009 09:21 PM
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Whirl2
Heliman
Location: Olympia, WA.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Thanks for the quick reply

I guess I should clarify my thinking a bit. with the heli all set up like you where ready to fly it more or less starts showing up with in the top 60% of the throttle. The esc I have has a ramp up mode where it takes like 8 seconds to hit full throttle if one was to just put it in high gear right off the bat. I do a lot of my fly at around 76-80% throttle even then it's in it's full on run up mode. so that said at first it seems to be ok, then once it gets into high gear then it really shakes it's head
My trick for figuring this was to eliminate the obvious and go from there first the head came off and I did a run up same vibration while holding it you can feel it when it gets more involved, pretty much at about 30% you can start feeling it come on. so from there I check gear mesh. I had a up and down wiggle to the main gear so that was replaced, to no avail, next was pull the belt slack to check the tail rotor gear mesh then wa-la gone was the vibration so figure I was heading down the right road this told me it wasn't the bearings or main shaft or gears, but once you hooked up the belt she was back. So my next move was to take off the tail blades and for the most part the vibs went way, there was this ramp up vibration where when you go through an acceleration rpm where there was a bit of a vib, but for the most part it lasted like a mila sec up and down through the brief rpm range, that I figured was just a minor annoyance since it was a place I fly at. so figure I'd try a another set of blades they where also balanced out so i knew they where good but once installed the vibration was back and it seems to be right from the get go by now I was getting a handle one what to expect and you could tell at 25% there was something wrong/ so off the baldes this time I check the out out shaft of the tail rotor I've had these go wrong on me in the past, but it is straight. blades off no Vibration, blades on it's there, doesn't matter what type plastic or cf trex or elflie still does it. crazy..huh??

Up date after all said, lol my son flies a trex450 and he stopped by with yet another set of T blades so on they went, did a run up and OH crap! even worse, but this time it did it so bad one could see the tail rotor spindle hub pitch link flex, they where pro size blades which are a bit longer so this aggravated it even more, a look at the pitch links looks to be the culprit. take it off and it's velt smooth, put it back on with no blades and you can tell it ain't right even that weird run up vib is gone with the pitch link off. All though looking at this I can't find anything a miss that would cause this. Good thing CNC is a great company, I'll just send this one in exchange for a new one. More later when I get the new one back something tells me I'm not out of the woods just yet.
10-11-2009 10:30 PM
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Gyronut
Elite Veteran
Location: Martinsville In.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		WoW.....

Nice Lookin heli...........

After all is said and done did you actually check the bal of the main and tail blades..??

Did you check the bal of the head as an assembly w/o the blades..??

Did you check the bal of the tail assembly..??

Is the tail rotor or main shafts bent..

Rick
10-12-2009 01:19 AM
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bladerunnerXX
Heliman
Location: enumclaw, wa

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		b400

so how can you call it a b400? there is nothing there that is off a b400

other than the layout, lol
10-13-2009 06:10 PM
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Whirl2
Heliman
Location: Olympia, WA.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yep did the main blades, it was the first thing that popped into my mind that and main shaft and feather shaft, all checked out fine.I also did a complete over haul checking everything thing in the head, squared up the fly bar cage and checked fly bar balance and placement, all checked out fine.
Yep not much left other than the stock boom rods to change.I'm
still going over the situation, I thought I had it nailed down to a bent or off center rotor blade grip and shaft, Nope it's fine too. so now it's time to go over all the bearings, It's still a mystery where it's coming from.
10-14-2009 05:59 AM
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Whirl2
Heliman
Location: Olympia, WA.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Verdict is in. Guess what it is?? How many times have you tracked your tail Rotor blades? seems this one, LOL never, even though I do give em a good checking as in rotor shaft, belt tension, blade tightness, but since the hub is pretty stout and short never considered that it could bend. I would have thought the blade grips would go first as there's bearings to go to. Nope, have a bent hub or shaft, reason I say that is I don't know as the so called shaft in a sonix tail looks to be able to come out. but not this one, an eflite one is made as a solid piece to make up the hub. Any way glad thats over. What a process. thanks for listening.
10-15-2009 02:27 AM
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vortechZ230
Elite Veteran
Location: Michigan, U.S.A.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		You must have alot of money!!!!!!!!!!

Blue skies, Light Winds!
10-16-2009 01:41 AM
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Cleavage
New Heliman
Location: Brooks, Alberta - Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Blade 400 3D Oh what a delima, tail Vibration???

So, all you did is change the tail rotor shaft?

I am having the same problem, with a severe vibration at half throttle and up. I have put just about all new parts on the helicopter as well as changing out all bearings, new mainframe, boom, belt (three times), Tail rotor Drive pulley, tail boom case, as well as using CNC one, three tail rotor shafts, third set of tail rotor blades, fourth set of tail blade grips, and third or fourth tail rotor hub.

The vibration is still with me...

Have phoned horizon, and they sent me a new tailrotor shaft, and blade grips which did nothing.

Same problem as yours, where if the belt is not "connected" to the tail rotor everything is fine. once the tailrotor spins, look out.
10-16-2009 02:49 PM
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Whirl2
Heliman
Location: Olympia, WA.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		LOL No, No money just something that happens over time..

It's not the tail rotor shaft, but the blade grip hub assembly, it's along the lines of the feathering shaft in the head, but in the tail it's a combination of blade grips and hub, at least that's the way eflite does it. If that isn't perfect you won't have a tracked tail rotor which in turn causes the vibration.
10-16-2009 09:00 PM
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Mitchilito
Senior Heliman
Location: Morehead City, NC USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Cured!

I just spent the last several weeks experiencing this exact problem. It was indeed a tailblade tracking issue. After changing the tail shaft, balancing blades, etc I finally took the hub and grips apart, replaced the blade bolts and that fixed the problem.

perfection is the death of creation
10-19-2009 01:38 PM
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briangp
Senior Heliman
Location: Buzzard's Bay, MA USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Wish I could have helped you earlier... the T/R shaft was going to be my very first suggestion reading your post. Happy Flying.

I need one of those to fly in my office. Tried to fly my .90 in there but man is my wife pissed now!
10-20-2009 03:52 AM
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Cleavage
New Heliman
Location: Brooks, Alberta - Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Can you tell me how you balanced the tail rotor blades? Have tried this at here, but does not seem to work due to the light weight of the tail blades.
11-02-2009 02:30 PM
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Cleavage
New Heliman
Location: Brooks, Alberta - Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Well, I am at a loss for words right now. I just got off of the phone with Horizon Hobby tech support, and told them about my problem.

The person on the phone told that I should replace the tail shaft, where I told him that as of right now, I have replaced everything on the helicopter, and I mean everything including motor and airframe. As well, I have put on approx 12 new stock shafts, as well as 5 aluminum shafts. 2 new stock tailcases, and 1 aluminum. 2 drive belt pulleys, 6 hubs, 4 sets blade grips, 8 sets of blades, and 2 pitchsliders.

He then told me that I should have the main blades on and fly it to get a "true sense" of the vibration.... The last time I had this thing anywhere close to being in the air, the vibration actually broke one of the tail boom supports.

His next piece of advice was to check my gyro's gain setting, which is at stock for the GY 401, and which was flying perfectly until this vibration.

I do not know what else to do now. I have been balancing the tail blades using a straight rod on glasses, and rolling the shafts before installing them. Everything should be working.

Anyone want to by a blade 400 with lots of parts? May go to a t-rex, since the lack of someone who actually cares at Horizon scares me for the rest of my aircraft, 2 - CX-2, 1 - CX-3, 1 MCX, 1 MSR, 1 - T-28D Trojan, 1 - P51 Mustang. I know, I'm venting a little.

The only thing that I can figure may be the problem is the tail rotor blade tracking, which I think I am understanding correctly.

Would someone be able to describe this in detail, or post pictures so that I can make sure that this may be a problem, or that I am not doing something incorrectly?

Thanks for all help on this, already posted, and hopefully for more to come.
11-03-2009 04:59 PM
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Mitchilito
Senior Heliman
Location: Morehead City, NC USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Like I said earlier I had a similar vib. I rebuilt the tailhub/grip assembly and fixed my vib. Here's what I think fixed it: One of the grip bolts wasn't all the way seated or it had bottomed out on something so that grip was farther away from the hub than the other.

Pull on your tailgrips and make sure they are both the same distance from the hub and both your grip bolts are fully seated.

And good luck. I know how frustrating it is. . . .

perfection is the death of creation
11-03-2009 08:34 PM
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Cleavage
New Heliman
Location: Brooks, Alberta - Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Thanks for the advice and reply. Will try this tonight and post result.
11-03-2009 11:21 PM
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Cleavage
New Heliman
Location: Brooks, Alberta - Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		OK, Tried the screws, and I have the same distance on both sides. Replaced the screws twice and noticed that there was a difference with which set of screws I used.

Changed the shaft, Hub and Blade grips again, and tried again, assured that the distance was the same on both sides. Horrible shake still. I removed everything again, and no shake. Put everything back on with tail rotor blades, and it shook the tail servo rod out of the clips. Wow.

I seen in another post that a trex tail assembly will work on the Blade, so may try this as a last resort. At the very least, it may point me to a different problem, though unlikely in my mind.

Thanks for your suggestion though. I appreciate the help. It is always good to get other ideas, whether they work or not, it can always help point to a solution, or maybe something that had been missed previously.

Appreciative always.
11-04-2009 01:51 AM
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Cleavage
New Heliman
Location: Brooks, Alberta - Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Well, Tried the bolts, and ofter fiddling with about 6 pairs, got two to match up, and balanced. No good result as it still shakes the heck out of the copter. I am convinced that this is a tail shaft issue.

I have just ordered the CNC tail for this, and from what I have read about it, and the pictures of it, seems beefy and vibration resistant.

Will post if this works.

Link if anyone wants it. http://www.cnchelicopter.com/servle...-400-CNC/Detail
11-05-2009 06:14 PM
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supra6
Heliman
Location: Singapore

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Make sure you have your limits set up on that tail, due to the geometery of the slider and links, they can go over center with to much displacement to the right.
11-06-2009 04:26 AM
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Cleavage
New Heliman
Location: Brooks, Alberta - Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Thanks for the tip! I will have a look at that when it shows up.
11-06-2009 12:27 PM
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e-E-Flite Blade MSR CP CX MCX 400-3D > Blade 400 3D Oh what a delima, tail Vibration???
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