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Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . Ron’s HeliProz South

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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Is it worth it?
 
 
laughingstill
rrProfessor
Location: Gainesville, Fl, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum

No disrespect Chris but you design, build, fly gassers and very large helis both of which can benefit from not having a system as they are heavy and are not as succeptible to the same forces as lighter 3D machines. If you take a 500 sized heli and go naked FBL, you will have your hands full.
Most pilots thses days fly or attemp 3D, I have YET to see a vid of anyone performing a hard 3D routine without a flybar AND no stabilization.
That is where a 3 Axis system shines. It will allow the pilot to make move without fear of tendencies that the flybar was created to stop.
IMO if you remove the flybar and go naked, you are doing yourself a disservice. If you don't want to have a stabilization system then keep the flybar

Logo 600 VBAR, E-Aurora VBAR, and an extra VBAR :D
10-16-2009 02:32 PM
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Ben-T-Spindle
rrProfessor
Location: Central Illinois

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Do you guys know if the FAI or the AMA are considering making flybarless legal for competation?

... BTS
10-16-2009 02:55 PM
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F1 Rocket
Senior Heliman
Location: Melbourne, Florida USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Flybar, no flybar, with or without electronics, all are capable of flying well. IMO you should fly what ever is going to put a smile on your face. After all, that’s what this hobby is about


Danny

Esprit Model
10-16-2009 03:34 PM
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Terrabit
Key Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		It's hard to argue with that!!!

Our sun emits roughly 394 yottawatts in perpetuity. We use roughly 1/1,000,000,000,000,000 of that.
10-16-2009 04:17 PM
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Chris Bergen
Elite Veteran
Location: location

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Laughingstill,

How do you KNOW until YOU try it?

Of course, maybe as a SPONSORED pilot, you WANT people to buy the expensive electronics, that's your job!! No disrespect intended.

This Caliber 5 seems to have no trouble, I'm pretty sure it's lighter than my "heavy" Gasser!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaxhzM-kETw

How light is too light, how nimble is too nimble? Won't know 'til you try...

I see nothing in the rules that says you HAVE to use a flybar, but you may NOT be able to use the additional electronics...

Chris Bergen
10-16-2009 04:52 PM
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Eco8gator
Key Veteran
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Just to chime in.

Chris and a few other pointed out the obvious...a good flybarless setup usually starts with a good flybarless mechanics. The airframe should be reasonably flyable with NO stabalization. From there the 3 axis systems really shine especially during 3D routines that include technical manuvers.

What I will say is that I can fly a non stabalized 50 or 90 flybarless no problem even in wind...but I highly prefer a flybared machine in this case...its just easier to work with. Granted yes you can flip and flop and do some very basic 3D manuvers but it can become a handful in more difficult manuvers because of the pitchy nature.

Id also like to say that weight is only one aspect but the correct mechanical ratios play a very important roll too. With good geometry and a decent set of blades even a 450 will fly ok with no stabalization.

Last...to the untrained eye both videos may illustrate that the unstabalized helis fly nice but I could easily identify "things" that are resolved using a flybarless system.

Xera Motors
ProBar
10-16-2009 05:28 PM
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Chris Bergen
Elite Veteran
Location: location

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I've not found my Gasser "Pitchy", at least not drastically so. If I let go of the stick, the heli WILL pull into a very large loop, but it's NOT a sudden 90 degree pull up to vertical.

By simply holding the stick a little bit forward (or Backwards), the heli stays on a straight line.

The advantage is the huge increase in cyclic and collective response, even with a "heavy" Gasser! My 10.5 lb electric rolls so fast I can't keep up!!

Flying it this way DOES require some getting used to, just like when moving up from a Raptor .30 to a hot .90, you work your way into the additional power and responsiveness.

It still hovers with good stability, just keep your fingers on the sticks.

I have to offer that not ALL models will turn out this way, some may be too twitchy, and will require the electronics. I'm just suggesting to TRY it, you can always add the V-bar on later.

Chris Bergen
10-16-2009 05:43 PM
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laughingstill
rrProfessor
Location: Gainesville, Fl, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		You said:
Quote 
I've not found my Gasser "Pitchy", at least not drastically so. If I let go of the stick, the heli WILL pull into a very large loop, but it's NOT a sudden 90 degree pull up to vertical.

Quote 
By simply holding the stick a little bit forward (or Backwards), the heli stays on a straight line.

Quote 
It still hovers with good stability, just keep your fingers on the sticks.


Quote 

I have to offer that not ALL models will turn out this way, some may be too twitchy, and will require the electronics.

I said before:

Quote 
That is where a 3 Axis system shines. It will allow the pilot to make move without fear of tendencies that the flybar was created to stop.



Logo 600 VBAR, E-Aurora VBAR, and an extra VBAR :D
10-16-2009 07:29 PM
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Chris Bergen
Elite Veteran
Location: location

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		For $475, I'll push forward on the stick...

Once you get used to it, you forget that you're even making any inputs, you're just flying the helicopter, giving it whatever inputs are necessary.

For full disclosure purposes, I have NOT flown with a V-Bar system, and only setup one heli with a Skookum.

It flew very well, and I could "feel" the gyros working, making inputs, which ALSO required some getting used to...

Chris Bergen
10-16-2009 08:58 PM
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Blade_Master1
Elite Veteran
Location: Canada

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I have personally seen a trex 450 with out the fly bar or FBL system and it flew very well.
buddy lowered the dual rates and added expo and it would hover hands off

apparently the only thing the fly bar does is help stabilize the heli in wind.

if you lighten the flybar the cyclic responsiveness increases but at a cost of wind stabalization.
the flybar may give some gyroscopic stabilization with weights

I haven't tried a real FBL system for myself, I did try a helicommand 3d and I was turned off by all the programming involved plus the endless tweaking, just for it to act like a coaxial with attitude.

when pricing comes down to a more reasonable cost for a 3 axis gyro
I may try it

it just that flybars are free and it can be done with out FBL system
besides wouldn't a 3 blade be better than a FBL system?
10-16-2009 09:06 PM
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Jeff polisena
Elite Veteran
Location: westpalmbeachflorida usa

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I've read almost every post on FBL and everyone has their own opinions , that's fine but give your opinion based on expierince not speculation and not with cost. You can buy cheap and get good stuff or pay overpriced and get junk . I don't fly VBar because it cost more but to me I can setup easier than other I've HAD not that VBar is better my second choice is Probar but I got confused on setup and Carlo was more than helpful .Flybarless is not autopilot it is taking place of mecanical setup yes you can get better performance out of it but if you can't setup a heli mecanicaly then you will still have issues with fly arless systems no matter which one you buy .

F.O.C.U.S. I have enough friends !!!!!
10-16-2009 09:42 PM
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laughingstill
rrProfessor
Location: Gainesville, Fl, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
For $475, I'll push forward on the stick...
Chris you design and sell some of the most expensive helis on the market, $475 would just about cover a mainshaft right

Logo 600 VBAR, E-Aurora VBAR, and an extra VBAR :D
10-17-2009 04:16 AM
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Eco8gator
Key Veteran
Location: Palm Beach Gardens, FL

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Its more than just pushing fwd ele. How about posting a video of you trying some high speed tail slides, fast forward flight from one end of the flight line to the other end, and some side ways loops...

Xera Motors
ProBar
10-17-2009 01:50 PM
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Jeff polisena
Elite Veteran
Location: westpalmbeachflorida usa

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Carlo , some people will never get it that's why we do what we do

F.O.C.U.S. I have enough friends !!!!!
10-17-2009 10:50 PM
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tommytt1
Veteran
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		What do you guys do?

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
10-18-2009 12:42 AM
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Jeff polisena
Elite Veteran
Location: westpalmbeachflorida usa

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		If you don't know then you never will

F.O.C.U.S. I have enough friends !!!!!
10-18-2009 12:52 PM
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tommytt1
Veteran
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Seriously, what do you do?

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
10-18-2009 01:59 PM
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Jeff polisena
Elite Veteran
Location: westpalmbeachflorida usa

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I'm being sarcastic meaning not everyone flys the same. Myself and carlo have similar flying style which requires top knotch and fast reliable equipment. It seems that some people get closed minded in this big world.

F.O.C.U.S. I have enough friends !!!!!
10-18-2009 02:46 PM
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lugnutz
Senior Heliman
Location: trenton,nj

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		i do it because i can do it
10-18-2009 04:31 PM
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tommytt1
Veteran
Location: Mercerville, NJ, USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Understood.

I made a mistake once, but I was wrong?
10-18-2009 05:33 PM
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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems > Is it worth it?
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