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Ace Hobby . Esprit Model . Thunder Power RC

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Main Discussion > nitro in the next 5-7 years??
 
 
BOOGIE
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Location: LAFAYETTE LA

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$300!! LOL I dont think so! If it does I have a few gallons for sale

Team PO-BOY
11-03-2009 10:25 PM
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Terrabit
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Location: Seattle, WA - USA

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I live in the city. Nitro is just not practical for city flying. Besides, the motor in my vbar Logo 600 is capable of producing upwards of 7hp. I routinely charge 2 of the 4 $200 10s 4200's that power it with two inexpensive chargers in roughly 30 minutes. I charge my 6 $40 3s 2250's using the same chargers in roughly the same time.

One primary distinction between nitro and electric is the maturity of the technology. Nitro has matured pretty much to the fullest extent possible over the past several decades. The only way to break new ground is increase displacement. There are no "real" advances happening in nitro because the technology is topped out - period.

Electric on the other hand is no where near mature. Motors are advancing in power and efficiency; batteries of various chemistries are increasing in energy density and charge/discharge rates - and at the same time getting lighter and less expensive; and speed controlers, BEC's, data loggers, etc. are advancing in sophistocation. These things are changing profoundly on a daily basis. This is undeniable.

This is not a coincidence. Much of the advance in these areas are being driven by the need for a viable alternative to the internal combustion engine. R&D for full scale consumer and industrial applications is happening here in the hobby segment. WE are testing and refining the technologies that will power the busses, planes, trains, helicopters, factories and so forth of tomorrow.

These technologies are the emerging industry of the next 50 years. If I were betting man, I'd say the smart money is there.

Peace out!

Esprit Model Flight Team
11-03-2009 11:03 PM
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FlyingHigh450
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Location: Macomb,Mi

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Quote 
Terrabit
One primary distinction between nitro and electric is the maturity of the technology. Nitro has matured pretty much to the fullest extent possible over the past several decades. The only way to break new ground is increase displacement. There are no "real" advances happening in nitro because the technology is topped out - period.

Electric on the other hand is no where near mature. Motors are advancing in power and efficiency; batteries of various chemistries are increasing in energy density and charge/discharge rates - and at the same time getting lighter and less expensive; and speed controlers, BEC's, data loggers, etc. are advancing in sophistocation. These things are changing profoundly on a daily basis. This is undeniable.



You have no ideal what your talking about cause if you did and kept up on technology you'll know OS/YS came out with quite a few new motors that make alot more power over old technology .Just like the comment about my car,my classics "maybe" see the road 4 month out of the year,1000 miles a year and 1 oil change a year but you make a dumb comment like that (the one you edited ) .Your daily driver (if you have one) sees more oil changes,burns more oil and sees more road miles in 3-4 years than mine see in 1 .Run for your lives,Terrabit said technology is topped out .Some people "only" read what they wanna read .Im sorry you live in the city,can't fly nitro and don't keep up on technology .

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
11-03-2009 11:40 PM
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OICU812
rrProfessor
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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flyhigh, yes OS/YS made some new motors, guess what they use more fuel and give less flight time, sure they produce more power but that is the ONLY gain. Electric, batteries are getting better producing more power and consistency then ever and producing longer flight times, and are becoming more available and cheaper to. Electric in the hobby is progressing far more then nitro, I won't say nitro is topped out, BUT you don't see them producing more power and using less fuel right? Kinda an opposite scenario with the electric scene within that respect.

Where or when was the last time you flew a large electric to compare against your 600N?, I have several electrics of all sizes and a 600N in basement with a 55 OS, my Logo 600 gets only about 40 seconds less flight time in air same style of flight as my 600N but produces at least 60% more power throughout the flight, that is no joke, my 600 outperforms every 700N in our club as well and not one of those guys would dis agree in that either. Way I see it is this, upfront Electric costs more no debating that as you need some goods. However I am on same chargers, same power supply since I started, if you buy good stuff that is a day one and on thing, the lipos are getting better and each season becomes more rewarding. Whatever you are into and whatever gets you stick time and a smile on your face. Don't go knocking something you may not have experience with, I own both I certainly know the difference and cons and pros of each for sure.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
11-03-2009 11:53 PM
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fenderstrat
rrProfessor
Location: Aston,Pa

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Not if you vote them out of office.

there is nobody getting elected on a pro pollution platform

flyinghigh450,what new technology are these new engines?....nothing,more displacement,thats it.and as already said more power with LESS flight time.So now the gap between elec and nitro is even smaller.

if you look at battery technolgy in the last 2 years,it is clear that in 2 more years flight times will be longer than nitro with more power,faster charging,and the prices are dropping fast.

with nitros fuel is going up while flight times remain the same or get shorter.

I love flying both,but electric IS the future of this hobby

PerformancePlusRC field rep
COMPASS helis field rep
Mini Titan/SE
HBK2
Futaba FASST
11-04-2009 12:35 AM
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Terrabit
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Location: Seattle, WA - USA

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I realize the comment I made earlier was a bit over the top. I appologize for that. Alternative energy, more widely known as ET (energy technology) among professional associations, is a passion for me. That is why I have been studying business, politics, and physics formally for the past three years. I have put a lot of hard work into this and I can tend to get carried away. Occasionally, I have trouble restraining myself.

As for the new OS, YS, and Novarossi motors, I am aware of them. What they are doing is tantamount to replacing a 327ci engine with a 350ci engine. Energy out equals energy in minus inefficiency. As Shawn stated, what is different about electric power is the increase in efficiency in terms of heat, weight (or more apropos mass*), and capacity.

* Weight and mass are not the same thing. Weight refers only to the effect of gravity on mass. Without gravity, as in space, you would still have mass. The energy required to accellerate a given mass on a horizontal plane - with or without gravity, is virtually the same. This is highly relevant to rc helis which play in three dimensions. Lighter is obviously better.

Esprit Model Flight Team
11-04-2009 12:43 AM
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FlyingHigh450
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Location: Macomb,Mi

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OICU812
Where or when was the last time you flew a large electric to compare against your 600N?
Umm last week,2 weeks before that and a bunch of times before that.Why are you asking?
Quote 
I have several electrics of all sizes and a 600N in basement with a 55 OS, my Logo 600 gets only about 40 seconds less flight time in air same style of flight as my 600N but produces at least 60% more power throughout the flight, that is no joke
I gotta see video of that cause EVERY 50 size electric ive seen or flown has never lasted in the air longer than a 50 size nitro,not even a 12 cell setup.There awesome for the first 3-4 mins,thats it.Your mileage may very but when your on the deck with a electric the batterys go fast,I never see a electric get the crap smacked out of it for 7 mins ,5mins tops

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
11-04-2009 12:50 AM
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OICU812
rrProfessor
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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7 minutes nope, not "YET" and no one said that, so you've got that BUT it is coming soon and the writing is pretty clearly written on the wall of that very thing.

I watched your videos I look at the flight time and it corresponds to your flight style and what you are doing to the machine nothing more. Some hoverkings can get 10 minutes I am sure, I know guys who dump a 600N tank in 5mins, of course their machine is jacked to get the best performance it can and they smack it, that's the point mileage varies as you say, even in the nitro world.


Sorry when I said 600 I meant Logo 600, there is a BIG difference between a t-rex 600 and a Logo 600, 600 Rex is a TANK in comparison my friend. Ever flown a well setup Logo, or just a t-rex??


I realize you have a great addiction to the hobby, I've watched your progress, but you are speaking without some good comparisons and knowledge base. Many of these members on the Electric side are speaking in terms of owning both or having went from one to another. You own a 600N correct, what other electrics have you yourself owned, tuned and flown other then say a 450? This is not a pi$$ing match, I'd just like to know...

Seems to me MANY times in these kind of discussions it turns to heated debates, and MANY times the nitro fellas haven't owned or flown an electric within the size range of comparison and ALOT of mud gets slung when they know eff all about the topic, it seems to always come down to more of them justifying what they're flying, I don't give two hoots what someone flies, but to be fair let's at least be honest and talk about what we in fact DO know.

Each of my 600 Logo setups is more then 3 minutes of raw power I can assure you of that lol, that is fact, with a good pack and good esc where the HS is maintained there is no drop off in current tech packs really, not one bit. If my Logo is tuned to 2200rpm with a 4500mah pack I can fly it 5:25, My 600N if I tune it at say 2280 and to get the best power it can get it's landing at 5:45-5:55 tops and i'm into the header tank, and during these flights the Logo is putting out considerably more power throughout the flight, zero bog. Watch Bert Kammerers flights with the newest OS, how long are those flights?...Exactly...

It's good to be proud of what you fly electric, nitro, any brand but know what you are talking about. A couple examples of your friend putting heavy packs onto an allready heavy bird is not imo even close to what we are discussing here.

If you have or do follow what new packs that are coming out are all about the math is there, that's a whole other discussion, but things even in the last 6 months have changed dramatically in the electric side of the hobby.

You can keep flying your Nitro I don't care, I love plug and play and flying care free of issues to deal with, it suits me fine.

As it was asked to you, other then a few power play motors that use more fuel and give less flight time, what on the nitro side has advanced? A couple new models, a few new brands of fuel, but no real advancements to speak of,,, really..

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
11-04-2009 01:01 AM
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Nashville
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Location: Music City USA

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Doesn't matter to me if or when we get 7-9 minutes of battery flight time. I don't want to be limited by being forced to stop flying because I'm out of batteries. Nitro, gas and go.

I was Spektrum when Spektrum wasn't cool
11-04-2009 01:36 AM
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FlyingHigh450
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Location: Macomb,Mi

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I realize you have a great addiction to the hobby, I've watched your progress, but you are speaking without some good comparisons and knowledge base. Many of these members on the Electric side are speaking in terms of owning both or having went from one to another. You own a 600N correct, what other electrics have you yourself owned, tuned and flown other then say a 450? This is not a pi$$ing match, I'd just like to know...

Yes,I love this hobby.I dont want anyone to take me the wrong way cause I do like electric thats why you'll never see me in a electric topic putting them down like some of these guys, im not about to sit back while the haters trash talk.Alot of them do it cause they can't tune a motor so they go electric or they don't like the oil ,how is that our problem?They talk about how electric is sooo much better cause they don't have to tune a motor,motors don't blow,over heat ect....Just cause they don't know what there doing they make it look soo bad.The only problems ive ever had with my nitros is rear bearings,a set of boca's and no problems at all.I have not messed with my needles in months.I had 30 gallons through my old Hyper 50,sold it to a member here and its still running strong.Nope I don't own a electric,had a 600 for a week and sold it but thats when I first started the hobby (too much money to repair when I crashed) ,but I have flown and beat on quite a few the past few months.For me if I went electric,I would need about 15 12 cell lipos just to get the flight time like I do on my nitro,1 flight on my 600N is 2 flights on a 12 cell 600E.Theres pros and cons to both but for someone to make electric sound like its the best out there and the best way to go is bs and people know it.Whats good and the best for you doesn't mean it is for the next person or everyone.Im not good at explaining things over the net so I hope you know what im saying ..

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
11-04-2009 01:38 AM
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OICU812
rrProfessor
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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Yes fair enough, but that same statement holds water to my nitro to. At 10-12 gallons I look at resleaving and a new piston. Most times at 5-6 I look at changing a clunk line. Sometimes I go 20 flights sometimes more or less a glow plug goes, clutches, cleanup etc...

So there are duties and things to know on both sides 100% agree.

I don't mind anyone arguiing what they feel is better, but it is much more constructive when you are dealing with someone who owns and flies both in equal sizes of comparisons to be dealt with. At over 12 funflies I went to this summer fwiw I never sat once waiting for packs to charge and I have 6 lipos (no need for 12-15 you list, lol) in my range for the heli I fly, one may have always been on the charger, but I never could not fly due to waiting for anything, chances are most people at those events would tell you I probably flew more then anyone there that had a nitro to be honest, lol. As an experiment I de tuned my 600 Logo to 2125 rpm so closer to being as low power as my 600N, a more comparable power to weight, my flight time then on my Logo was 7minutes and abit

Back to the topic at hand,,, I think both sides of love will see that within the next few years we are going to see HUGE changes and improvements in the electric side, I feel anyone can quote this and come back two years tops from now, this debate will no longer exist, seriously just look into typing in nanowire lithium technology, that is entering the rc realm very soon and will actually not only close the gap on flight time but surpass it. The long story short of this technology is having a battery with twice as much capacity at even a smaller size and weight as we have currently.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
11-04-2009 01:56 AM
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Big Fil
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Location: Santa Rosa

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Headspeed....that's the one thing most forget to mention in these debates. Most of the time you see big 50 sized electrics running much higher headspeeds than their equivalent nitros. For instance in the two videos posted the nitro sounded like it was running 2000-2100rpm.
The electric......much higher. If you gear down properly and run the electric at a similar headspeed than your going the close the flight time gap.

What size packs was the 600E running? I'm guessing 2 Trex 500 sized packs in series.

Mikado
Edge Blades
11-04-2009 02:04 AM
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Terrabit
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Location: Seattle, WA - USA

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I love my Logos!!! Got 12 flights in today.

Esprit Model Flight Team
11-04-2009 02:13 AM
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FlyingHigh450
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Location: Macomb,Mi

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The nitro is at 2000 on the head and electric is 2150 on the head,2 6 cell packs and 1 2 cell for electronics.My turd is 2150 on the head and still a dog .

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
11-04-2009 02:19 AM
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BOOGIE
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Location: LAFAYETTE LA

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I had a Trex 600 on 8S that had more power than any 600N I have seen. But flight time was 4:30. I think you should fly what you want to fly.

Team PO-BOY
11-04-2009 02:58 AM
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OICU812
rrProfessor
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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flyhigh, ur turd is a "HEAVY" turd, that's why. You need to lighten your turds.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
11-04-2009 04:02 AM
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Terrabit
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Location: Seattle, WA - USA

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Bran muffins work for me.

Esprit Model Flight Team
11-04-2009 04:08 AM
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FlyingHigh450Elite Veteran - Location: Macomb,Mi - My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
OICU812
flyhigh, ur turd is a "HEAVY" turd, that's why. You need to lighten your turds
Had to edit,don't wanna let the cat out of the bag yet .

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
11-04-2009 04:27 AM
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30636086
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Location: Tacoma, WA

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I dont suffer from mental iIlness, I actually enjoy mine!
11-04-2009 04:27 AM
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Big Fil
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Location: Santa Rosa

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Seen a couple of 600Ns now with 90s stuffed in them. It'll be interesting to hear your thoughts on a 70. Needless to say the 90s were anything but impressive.

Mikado
Edge Blades
11-04-2009 05:13 AM
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