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Main Discussion > nitro in the next 5-7 years??
 
 
yzchopper
Senior Heliman
Location: Basin City, Washington USA

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Junkpilot,
+1
Quote 
When is the last time you read an article about somebodys home cacthing fire because he had a jug of fuel stored under the shelf?

This debate reminds me of the Motocross and Supercross world. The AMA no longer has factory race companies racing 2 stroke motorcycles (due to the emissions), but the privateers can still race the 2 strokes I think. So they have switched to the 4 stroke motorcycles. The classes use to be 125, 250, and 500. Now they are the 250 lites (125), 450 (250), and they no longer have the 500 class. California banned all 2 strokes after 1997. The manufacturers had to reinvent the 4 stroke engine to be very lite in weight, but have the same quick and crisp throttle response as the 2 stroke. So they did, now the bikes are little less heavier (still heavier than the original 2 stroke, but they make up for the little extra weight in having more power). They reworked the carbs too. They used to be the conventional manual fuel/air mix with a set screw, then moved to fuel injection and now it is electronic fuel injection. Why can't the R/C engine manufactures do this. More power, less fuel burn and longer flight times. We could then just use gasoline or alcohol and have less mess to clean up and maybe even save a few pennies so we could buy more... crash kits and parts.

Steve

People Fly Planes Pilots Fly Helicopters
10-03-2009 04:45 PM
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yzchopper
Senior Heliman
Location: Basin City, Washington USA

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Ace Dude,
Quote 
Maybe if you evaluated the cost of the hobby before you entered it you could adequately match your flying to your budget.
Maybe he did have a budget, that is why he got into this great hobby. But unfortunately when the inflation hit an fuel prices went up, his pay at work did not. His employer must have been out on his expensive 2week vacation during the pay raises week for his/her employees

Steve

People Fly Planes Pilots Fly Helicopters
10-03-2009 04:54 PM
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Mutt
Key Veteran
Location: M ca usa

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Quote 
maybe if you burned a lot of fuel you would understand
I burn a gallon every 4 days so dont even go there.
10-03-2009 05:08 PM
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FlyingHigh450
Elite Veteran
Location: Macomb,Mi

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^^ Me too,I burned over 30 gallons in 2-3 months .

Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
10-03-2009 05:13 PM
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QuantumPSI
Elite Veteran
Location: Boston, MA

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I realized that when I was able to fly my nitros back to back, the fuel did get a bit expensive. My 450 though is fitting me just fine. I can't fly a nitro after classes (unless I want to deal with an hour of traffic), but 9 packs on my 450 will keep me at the park for an hour. Now, if I COULD fly my nitros daily, I definitely would and I'd be complaining about the prices of fuel as well!

...now where was I, dh/dt = BS-dx/dt
I will fly you forever... till earth do us part
10-03-2009 06:02 PM
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wjvail
Senior Heliman
Location: Meridian, Mississippi

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A few thoughts...

1. There is an ongoing fundamental problem in the modeling world today. That is the continuing reference to our models being "nitro" models. It is hype I started to see a few years ago when the cars started to take off. "NITRO, NITRO, NITRO!!!! 65MPH NITRO MONSTER TRUCK!!" "GET THE SMELL OF PURE NITRO AND POWER IN THE NEWEST ASSOCIATED XXX MONSTER MONSTER MONSTER NITRO NITRO NITRO... THING" To be clear, our models are largely methyl alcohol powered. They run somewhat better with some nitro and must have oil mixed in... but in the end, they are alcohol engines with a lube and idle/power additive (nitro). Our models will run all day on 0% nitro + 14% oil. Even "hot" helicopter fuel is less than a 1/3 nitro and "sport" heli fuel is only 3 parts in 20 nitro. With the above said, it is worth noting that even in these difficult and inflated times, methanol is still only about $3.00 USD a gallon. 53 gallons of the stuff can be had for about 150 bucks. I can mix a gallon of 10% nitro fuel for around $7.00. If things get too difficult, I will still keep flying my glow models but it will be on lower nitro fuel. Now would be a good time to reread the subject line of this thread. Given there are no "nitro" models, would it be better to ask "glow in the next 5-7 years??" To answer the question, I think it will be exactly where it is today just with fewer modelers, and of those still in the game, more will choose to fly with fuels with a smaller percentage of nitro-methane as an additive.

Item 2. No matter what happens to the price of glow fuel, or the performance and price of electrics, I will always have a glow fuel model. I am personally fascinated that there is a tiny engine with a piston going up and down and a small controlled fire in my model making it go. I think it's pretty darn cool to add two cups of liquid to my model and get 10 minutes of flying. I just built an LT-40 trainer with a Wankel engine just to see it go. Clearly there are better and cheaper ways to power a trainer but I like the idea of a miniature rotary engine puring away in the front of my toy. I have to believe that I'm not the only one that feels this way and predict that some of us will always have a glow fuel model.

Finally. Having been an early adopter of Li-Po technology and electric models in general, I've now had the pleasure of throwing away 'bout 2,000 dollars in batteries. It seems to me that many of the people that love their electric helis are pretty new to the hobby and while they've felt the sting of paying hundreds of dollars for a new battery pack, they haven't felt the shear pain of then cutting the connectors off said packs so they can trash 'em. There is nothing like not flying an electric heli for a few years only to realise you will need to buy new flight packs just to take 'er for a spin around the field. It is entirely possible that once the newness and advertising pitch of electric flight wears off, we may see a rediscovery of glow powered models.

Cheers,

Bill



"Well, Nothing bad can happen now."
10-03-2009 06:22 PM
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turboomni
Elite Veteran
Location: 63 Rambler Down By The Dumpster

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I have one nitro heli left a Raptor 50 Hyper. Along side of it I have a case of 30% fuel I bought in 2008. Next to that I have a gasser and a 450 trex. Those two heli's are in use regularly and the Raptor has not flown in over a year. 2.54 a gallon for gas and flies for 15 to 20 minutes on 16 ounces of fuel. I do not fly the gasser because it's cheaper either and it will do most everything a nitro will do at abit slower pace. It has an on board generator to power everything and a pull start so I can fly all day without charging. I bring a gas can ,TX, heli and thats it. No electric starter,glo igniter,charger,charger battery,glo plugs,windex or paper towels needed!

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly better than I can pilot them
10-03-2009 06:37 PM
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sonnyhad
Veteran
Location: Holland,Mi

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I don't know if this was covered or not as this thread sure took off!! But most of the cost of nitro these days is in the shipping. It cost a hobby shop as much in the new hazmat tax to receive 1 case of fuel as it does to receive a whole skid. So get the guys together and order as much as you can, the price will not be so bad and you'll have cases of fuel that last a pretty good while in storage. It just the upfront money that hurts but we're talking less than 25 bucks a gallon that way sometimes 19 bucks at really good prices.

The sky is my friend, the ground is my enemy!Now I have to add Trees, to my enemy list!!! Dammit!!!
10-03-2009 06:49 PM
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JasonJ
Senior Heliman
Location: North Idaho

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I love my little electric 450, but I have to say that I felt like I finally arrived in the hobby when I stepped up to nitro. When I would tell people about my hobby, they almost always asked what powered it, and when I said "Batteries", they were visibly less than impressed. Doesn't matter that a 700 size electric 'Rex has 12 horsepower, they just see battery powered Rc as toys. Who doesn't remember those RC cars we got as kids that went in a straight line, and in order to change you had to back up, the car would turn in one direction, and then go straight again. That is what people see when they hear battery.

When I say fuel powered, (that is the easiest to say it to non-rc people), they get it. A lot of people at some point has seen either in real life or on tv/movies a fuel powered helicopter, and they light up, knowing it is something special to be able to fly one of these things.

The phrase "Wow, that must be really difficult" has almost always been said when mentioning a fuel powered rc helicopter.

The phrase "my kid has one of those" has almost always been said when mentioning a battery powered helicopter.

We know the truth, the rest do not.

For me, I love the sight of that tiny internal combustion engine doing it's thing and keeping my helicopter in the air. The only thing cooler would be a turbine.

That little wankel sounds pretty darn awesome as well, I would love to see that in action. Time to search Youtube....
10-03-2009 07:01 PM
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TachyonDriver
Key Veteran
Location: Chipping, Lancs, UK

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I don't know what cost the fuel will be, but I reckon it will still be quite widely available. I agree with Bill.
I have personally gone no larger than a 450 for an electric heli due to the cost of having to buy all my "fuel" at once, at around £30 a battery. The lipos seem to get damaged easier than a glow engine in a crash, but I do enjoy the 450 as well as my Raptor 30.

Tach.

Little Spinning Bundle of Joy® DON'T DISS THE DINO!!
10-03-2009 07:33 PM
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biglahou
Senior Heliman
Location: Idaho, the potato land, with better looking women.

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That is why they call this a hobby, some hobbies are not for some, some are for everyone.

In my opinion if you cant afford the hobby then find a different one.
If you look at this hobby compared to the money spend in any given hobby this is way cheaper than some.

To hang out at a flying field with family doing a barbeque and hanging out with friends letting the kids get involved or just going to a funfly is a blast to sit around in chairs and having a great laugh or what have you, is the hobby.

Dollar for dollar in this hobby or anything else cost money but I know compared to what I do as hobbies this is been on the average in cost even if cost of fuel was to go up even 15 bucks a gal.

But when you push up cost it will hurt the consumer and then that means less money made for the manufacture, that keeps cost down.

May I suggest one thing, get into a group buy of fuel, buy it by the crate with friends, buying bulk is a very smart way to go.

OK,,,SO WHAT, IM ADDICTED, WHATS YOUR POINT?
10-03-2009 08:13 PM
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RotorTech321
Heliman
Location: Scranton, PA. USA

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Yawn....next post.
10-03-2009 08:29 PM
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MartyH
Elite Veteran
Location: Cincinnati

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Mutt, We find ourselves in agreement quite a bit. I agree with you that if the cost of FUEL is a big problem for someone, they're in the wrong hobby or likely just not looking at the big picture. To the guys that talk about flying day and night 7 days a week. I hope some day you look up and discover a whole world out there. There are soooo many other things to do in life. Find some balance and lose that stress! I split my time between R/C flying, motorcycles, scuba diving, travel and I hold a Commercial Seaplane rating. I'm 46. Just for kicks I went and earned the Technician and General class amateur radio licenses a few weeks ago so that was a few evenings of study. I needed the Tech license for a wireless video system I mounted in an R/C plane but the General was just a personal challenge. This weekend I dusted off one of my Raptor 90s and one of my Raptor 50s and burned a couple gallons of fuel. I couldnt have played a round of golf or taken a date to the movies for any less than the $36 of fuel. I use Wildcat %15 which is $17.95/gal here.

Marty,
Raptor 90 3D, Freya and more
10-03-2009 08:57 PM
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rcjon
Senior Heliman
Location: Macon, GA

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For all of you considering getting out of glow totally, please do. Cheaper fuel for the rest of us.

A point seldom made in the glow vs. electric debate is that I enjoy tinkering with IC engines. Tuning, replacing rings and bearings, may be a PITA to some, but it adds to the modeling hobby for me.

As for the price of fuel, I'm just thankful I'm not into power boating or bass fishing. 4 or 5 mpg.

It's like a metaphor.
10-03-2009 10:52 PM
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JasonJ
Senior Heliman
Location: North Idaho

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Quote 
As for the price of fuel, I'm just thankful I'm not into power boating or bass fishing. 4 or 5 mpg.

That is what I got out of after starting this hobby, except my boat got around 2 miles to the gallon. I assure you, RC helicopters has been a less expensive hobby than fishing was.
10-03-2009 11:05 PM
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Mutt
Key Veteran
Location: M ca usa

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Quote 
As for the price of fuel, I'm just thankful I'm not into power boating or bass fishing. 4 or 5 mpg.

Check out the merc verado engines they are pretty easy on the fuel. That is what I have on my ranger love it tons of power and easy on the fuel.

Quote 
I agree with you that if the cost of FUEL is a big problem for someone, they're in the wrong hobby or likely just not looking at the big picture
Yep your right. I been flying planes for over 40 years and I will never stop flying glow powered planes or helis. Fuel is not that expensive if you shop around buy in bulk etc lots of ways to easy the cost down. Buddy of mine and I buy 18 cases each per year sometimes more sometimes a bit less depending on weather or if life its self gets in the way. We run the same fuel in our helies as we do our glow planes pretty enexpensive if you ask me compared to other hobbies like birt bies quads golf the list goes on. As for the original topic of this thread if they take nitro away in 5 years so be it I will fly with 0% as I have before in the past. Speaking of flying I guess I need to go and get my ranger ready for the morning gonna go get me a couple of bucket mouths and see if I can use up about 30 gallons of fuel.
10-03-2009 11:19 PM
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FlyingHigh450
Elite Veteran
Location: Macomb,Mi

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Cost me about $50.00 bucks to drive this for 2-3 hrs,fuel for my Trex 600N is CHEAP,CHEAP,CHEAP .


Trex 600N/hyper 50/MP5, Revmax,Spartan DS760/JR DS8900G,3 Align DS610's.
10-03-2009 11:59 PM
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nitrothugg
Heliman
Location: Chicago, IL United States

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whats wrong with buying 15% at 15-17 dollars?
10-04-2009 02:35 AM
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OICU812
rrProfessor
Location: Grande Prairie, Alberta, Canada

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Thing a few people here are getting mixed up on..

To the people saying that they had a 450 electric and they felt that once they went to a nitro that was their big JUMP in their skill and progression..

It was not the nitro heli that did that for you, it was a bigger heli period. You would have experienced that same ability or injection of skill and confidence with a larger electric as well, just to be clear. The E verssus Nitro debates will continue forever it seems, fly what works for YOU and makes YOU happy that's all that matters... However comments from those who either do not own or have flown each "setup properly" extensively, I will say your comments hold no gold.

...Once upon a time there were Nitros, flybars and frequency pins...
10-04-2009 04:32 AM
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rcjon
Senior Heliman
Location: Macon, GA

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Am I the only one that enjoys fiddling with IC engines as a part of the hobby? I tried electric planks, and I just found them to be very boring.

It's like a metaphor.
10-04-2009 05:04 AM
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