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Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . Ron’s HeliProz South

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Operating temp comparison / cooling statistics:
 
 
jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum

Does anyone recognize the brand of balancer seen in the CNCJunkie video clip?

Quote 
The Zimmerman tuned pipe muffler causes back more presure to increase hp like in a tune pipe, said to increase 1/2 to 1 hp, by deferent people, but the down fall is heat, up to 40 to 60degs hotter, which cause the whole engine to be hotter, and harder to cool,

Is this the side mount or the rear mount you're referring to, Wally?

I've never heard of the Zimmerman muffler causing any sort of performance gain (other than by saving a few ounces). All I know is that it is made of very thin stainless steel and seems to radiate heat much faster than the heavy block of aluminum which is the Century muffler. I would imagine that the Zimmerman muffler would actually allow the engine to run cooler than the Century muffler because the Zimmerman muffler works more like a heat exchanger (like in the old air cooled Porsches), whereas the Century muffler (which weighs several ounces more) works like a heat sink insulating the exhaust port of the Zenoah engine and causing it to run hotter.

I think the Zimmerman muffler would be the superior product if it wasn't for the higher cost and more importantly, the disappointing lack of customer support we seem to get from the Zimmerman company.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-31-2009 05:11 AM
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C.A.P.
Senior Heliman
Location: custer park IL.

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[quote]"Zimmerman muffler works more like a heat exchanger (like in the old air cooled Porsches". The heat exchange on the 911 and 914, and VW's were there to give heat for people inside the car nothing to do with the engine performance,except the engine produce the heat,through the exhaust pipe, [

[All muffler restrict the flow of the exhaust, which causes back presure, in 4cycles this needed so the valve do not warp, from cold air coming back in the head, So the exhaust header was make of heavy cast steel to keep the exhaust port hot long after the engine stopped when there is no back presure,to cool down at the same rate as the rest of the engine [

]At the “80 db” range!
The Zimmerman is more restrictive then the v4, causeing more back presure in a 2cycle which increses hp, and produces more heat, this is why people size heli's with gas engine are loud, I have a Rotorway With a 2cycle engine, it's loud, the exhaust is maded that way to give the engine freer flow and not to cause back pressure until higher rpms, to reduce heat. (The engine is water cooled), As I said about Raja's engine running so much hotter then everyone else, 240 to 260deg, with the new fan in the spectra g,This is the main reason, I will aways say check the gaskets, But I knew why Raja like the muffler, John at AirfoilHelicam.com sells these types of mufflers and will tell you about the hp gain because he does AP work,[]



[ [John's quote]Exhaust System
This is a complete exhaust system for the GSR260 Voyager Camera ship. It creates about 1.0 horse power over the stock system and is about half the decibels. This is for the Zenoah G23 RC260 231 and is a direct bolt on system.
Look at the tail pipe and you will see the opening is smaller then the v4, When side by side the v4 has a much deeper sound, meaning less restriction and freer flow, the v4 does make back pressure but at a higher rpm which is great for the 27cc and produces less heat in the engine, Peter at Century did a great job with the design of the v4, The Zimmerman will work good on the 3d maxs but not on the 27cc the engine. It is desgined to make it's own back pressure , internaly not externaly, to run cooler & produce more power, As we seen at IRCHA 2009 when Cody's 27cc stroker out climbed Raja's 3d max's stroker by 17%.
Cody will do some test with a Hanson tune pipe, after he breaks in the his new engine, to record the temp and power changes in changing the pipes, Wally
10-31-2009 09:35 AM
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AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
The max number is always dropping. How is the average calculated anyways? Trying to compare the coldest part of the engine to the hottest and dividing the two's total in half?

There in lies the problem. You don't understand the technology. The min and max in this case are subject to large errors. It could be the reflectance of one pixel of the camera from something that is stone cold. The average is averaging thousands or maybe 10 of thousands of pixels per second. More data gives you better accuracy.

Raja you are a great pilot and a hell of a good guy but you are way out of your league when it come to technical matters like this.

Ace
What could be more fun?
10-31-2009 02:27 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Wally, you're saying that restricting the muffler exhaust will actually increase HP? I don't believe it.

Back in the days when I was experimenting with nitro engines and tuned pipes, the only real HP increases I ever realized was when I used an unbaffled tuned pipe with a cone at the front and back end which apparently would reflect the sound and pressure waves from the engine. If you got the header just the right length, the resonance would supposedly suck a greater quantity of air through the carb and give you greater power--but at a very narrow rpm value. These tuned pipes had very low "through flow" air resistance.

All of the mufflers I made using mousse cans (or other things) which had greater back pressure would make the engine run worse. Stopping up the exhaust has always, in my opinion, decreased the performance of the motor. I just don't see how a 1HP increase could be achieved with a Zimmerman muffler. I think in reality the stock black Zenoah muffler would probably provide the best performance short of a tuned exhaust.

The muffler they have pictured in the AfoilHeliCam.com website appears to me (if their claims of a 1HP performance are true) to be a 1/4 wave tuned pipe. It is my understanding that this works like a full sized tuned pipe, but it reflects back a higher harmonic of the exhaust pulse so the gain is not as great as with a full wave tuned pipe, but the size is not 2 feet long like a full wave tuned pipe.

Quote 
I have a Rotorway With a 2cycle engine,

Am I understanding your post correctly that you have one of these full sized helicopters, Wally? If so, then that is super cool!!

http://www.rotorway.com/index.php

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
10-31-2009 02:31 PM
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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I'm sorry I don't agree

Quote 
Raja's engine running so much hotter then everyone else, 240 to 260deg, with the new fan in the spectra g

I've been to many funflys since IRCHA and everyone's Spectra that I've seen flying, flown, or tuned actually runs hotter than mine with the Wally fan. As I said before, Wally, your fan makes it run cooler. On a hot day I can't get 210 degrees with my 3D flying with your fan, on a cool day I sure can. If I run it at 11,000 rpms nice and easy I sure can too. Asking for 210 when its 90 degrees out and 3D-ing doesn't happen unless I richen it too much, and then its not running smooth.

That was #1, #2,

Quote 
As we seen at IRCHA 2009 when Cody's 27cc stroker out climbed Raja's 3d max's stroker by 17%.

Cody was running a 1950 head speed with 720mm blades. I was running a 1790 head speed with 710mm blades. With the bigger disk and higher head speed, his initial pop was faster than mine, but what happened is that he couldn't sustain the climb rate and his engine bogged down. In my case my engine kept on humming along and I maintained the same climb rate, and by the time we were 3/4 ways up on the climb caught up with him and passed him. That was my feeling and I don't think that test says anything that Wally's motor was more powerful.

If you want a confirmation, pm "bolar" (Larry) who was there as an independant neutral party, and ask him. You'll get a second opinion from him as to what he saw when we were doing it.

I'm all about giving the right information here and maybe your engine is more powerful than the Hanson 3D max motor I was flying then at IRCHA Wally, but I don't believe the test we did was a good indication of that. And what we did wasn't even a serious test, it was Saturday evening by the time you guys got the motors and helis running OK and we did it for fun just to see how they behaved, as opposed to let's each try to match rpms or optimize our machines before we do it. We just both flew our current setup, that's all.

As far as the muffler stuff Jrock, you're right a restricted muffler actually causes the engine to choke and lose power. I've seen that before with my rear mounted zimmerman. It got somewhat restricted from carbon over the years of usage, and the engine was not performing as well. After I cleaned it out, man the power came back very nicely.

But also from experience, I can tell you that the Century V2 muffler actually outperforms the stock box can, even though its more open in the pipe. Its a better designed muffler for giving more power, the stock box is just a box to direct the exhaust. I know this because I have flown both with a heavy MIT autonomous heli, and with camera and gps computer payloads, it had more climb power with the V2 than the stock box, even though it weighted a 1/2 pound more as the V2 13oz where the stock box is 5oz.

About this part:

Quote 
Now what did Raja do wrong with is test, NOTHING!!, EXCEPT he used a 1:1 gun. This reads a 1 in. spot AT 1 IN., which means you need a two ins, to get an correct reading and should be use just for refference ONLY. an 8:1 reads 1 in, at 8 ins , it reads 1/2 in at 4ins and reads 1/4 in at 2 ins. not that the 1:1 is not good gun, but will not read 2 fins correctly as a 8 or 10:1 will.

I see what you're saying here but if your 8:1 gun reads 1/4 in at 2 inches, why can't I move my temp gun closer to 1/4 in and read 1/4 in there? There is no reason I need to be further away. In fact when I take my readings I move it up to the cylinder and I can find different temps as I move it over the head. Yours reads from further away, mine if closer reads the same from closer in. Not sure what is wrong with that if anything.

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 870+ flights
10-31-2009 06:14 PM
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AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
I've seen the dimples made mostly on the underside of the fan, not sure which is best.

If you don't dynamically balance something of this geometry you are pissing in the wind. You have no idea where the excess mass is when using a static balancer. If you start dimpling anywhere you will static balance the mass but you will also put it further out of balance when it spins up to RPM.

Something that is CNC'd out of a billet is best left alone.

Ace
What could be more fun?
11-01-2009 01:44 PM
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15 pages [ <<    <     13      14     ( 15 )    >    >> ]5014 viewsPOST REPLY
MTA Hobbies . Model Rectifier Corp . ReadyHeli

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Operating temp comparison / cooling statistics:
 
 
Dr. Fibinotchi
Key Veteran
Location: Sioux Falls SD

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sorry guys

I was running 710's sabs at 1850 on the head. I didnt run 13k and over till after ircha when I got back. I didnt keep the 720's on long because I didnt like the roll rate even with pitch maxed.

Raja there where a lot of factors that would have been better had both of us had more time, BUT I had more pitch and more rpm. I did not have the machine setup for optimal climbout. I actually just added pitch untill the engin rpm sank. A gps would have been nice or rotor rpm with the same pitch would do it.

Also keep in mind that motor did not have the squash on the piston that my cuXXXnt one has and the porting was very mild with a stock piston. The compression was there which is just silly high...


-C
11-03-2009 03:11 AM
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15 pages [ <<    <     13      14     ( 15 )    >    >> ]5014 viewsPOST REPLY
Midland Helicopters . HeliProz . Ron’s HeliProz South

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Operating temp comparison / cooling statistics:
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