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Mikado Modellhubschrauber . Futaba-RC . Boca Bearings

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > zimmerman muffler
 
 
shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

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I think these pipes are welded in a vacuum and that has something to do with keeping the heat and oxidation down. I may just be talking out of my arsh here, but I thought that is what I had read about them. They also use a laser to do this in this vacuum. Maybe when these pipes are welded outside of that vacuum, it lets heat amd impurities come into play and thus resulting in further fatigue and cracking???? Just throwing this out there. I had a stainless header with the same issues. It never could be welded to any of the professional welders satisifaction that I had taken it to. Like I said, I'm no expert at all with this, I'm just basing this on some things that I have read about welding these types of alloys.

Gas is Great
QWW Helis
06-23-2009 04:58 AM
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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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yes that too is an issue it is very hard to get a good weld on stainless when the shielding gas does not make it to both sides.

In this case you also have contaminants from the inside that can work there way through.

When airplanes are found to have metal fatigue they are decommissioned or the whole component is replaced it can not be repaired to original specs.

in acase were a repair failure is not dangerous you can reweld somthing. but it will almost always fail again

CRASH! GLUE! REPEAT!
06-23-2009 05:08 AM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Quote 
I have been welding since 1978 when I passed the nuclear pipe welding test at Satsop, so I have 30 years experience welding.

Glad to have you on the Spectra-G troubleshooting team.

Why would someone need to weld one of these mufflers in a vacuum? Why not just do the welding in some sort of inert gas hood? Seems that would be much easier.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-23-2009 07:39 AM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

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Quote 
in some sort of inert gas hood?
Argon Arc stuff.

..was looking at pics of the old style back muffler compared to this one .. the spacing on those mounting lugs is so much closer here that side vibration with the weight of the can has to be the cause?...could one weld on a pair of outer tabs too and then link the outer pairs somehow to offset that? long tube spacers otherwise the ladder frames would go instead...

pgk
06-23-2009 12:34 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I feel like it's my fault for pressuing Alex to release a new muffler that was an exact copy of Raja's prototype muffler. The original "made for the Spectra-G" Zimmerman muffler that RCMarket sent me last August had the mounting tabs spread about 3 inches apart. Think back, I guess some spacers could have been used to mount the muffer. I just thought it should bolt right on there.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-23-2009 01:49 PM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

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Quote 
I feel like it's my fault for pressuing Alex to release a new muffler that was an exact copy of Raja's prototype muffler. The original "made for the Spectra-G" Zimmerman muffler that RCMarket sent me last August had the mounting tabs spread about 3 inches apart. Think back, I guess some spacers could have been used to mount the muffer. I just thought it should bolt right on there.

I reckon that if you used single mounting tabs with spacers then you have to get the same lateral movement issues unless widely soaced then you have a vibration in the spacers. Wider spacer tabs bolted to a frame overcome that ..or as suggested earlier - doubled tabs with spacers and the inner tabs butted against the ladder...

.. oughta be Ace's baby to work the loads and theory of that out..

pgk
06-23-2009 06:28 PM
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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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welding in a vacuum allows contaminated gasses to quickly flow away from the weld and I am sure that there is still a cover gas used. I have never done or seen in real life this type of welding but is is all done automated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_beam_welding

As for wider Tab's spreading the load and adding some sort of dampener would make sense as a next step.

no matter how well an engineer thinks something out it still has to be tested and what seems like a very good idea somtimes is not, these thing happen when trying new things, I would never knock a man for trying

It also seems like this has already come to there attention because some have reinforced units already.

I cant begin to count how many time I have built something only to find it needed mods or a complete rethink after it was installed its all part of getting things done.

CRASH! GLUE! REPEAT!
06-23-2009 06:41 PM
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carpman
Senior Heliman
Location: Spain

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Can we get some idea of how many rear mount Zimmerman mufflers are effected or are we talking just Raja's prototype?

I have had bad Align, Hatori and Century pipes in the past, I appreciate been made aware of problems but are we going a bit overboard here, maybe, maybe not?

KEVIN
Trex 600NSP | Trex 700 | MA Spectra G
06-23-2009 06:49 PM
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marco
Heliman
Location: Santa Rosa , Ca - USA

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My rear mount Zimmerman is good

Marc
06-23-2009 08:08 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Quote 
It also seems like this has already come to there attention because some have reinforced units already.

What do the reinforcements on the rear mount muffler look like? Where are they located? My muffler just has two very thin metal tabs welded near the center of the can.

Quote 
no matter how well an engineer thinks something out it still has to be tested and what seems like a very good idea somtimes is not, these thing happen when trying new things, I would never knock a man for trying

When I first got the idea in my head to build a gasser, I put in a backorder for a Spectra-G kit from Heliproz. While I was waiting 6 months for the kit to arrive, I got the idea to buy the "made for the Spectra-G" rear mount muffler from RCMarket. When the muffler arrived, it had the wrong header and the mounting flanges were 3 inches apart with the idea that "rubber dampeners would be used to soft mount the muffler". Excalibur tried this for awhile, and every flight one or more mounting bolts fell out. I spent months pressuring Alex at RCMarket to get Zimmerman to redesign the muffler to match Raja's prototype. Maybe the original design was better? Maybe I shouldn't have said anything?

Why has nobody thought of a rear mount Zimmerman muffler that is mounted longitudinally such that the length of the can is straight back and hanging off the boom, rather being mounted than sideways? It would be more aerodynamically appealing, and might offer better mounting options?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-23-2009 09:39 PM
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pgkevet
Key Veteran
Location: surrey UK

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Quote 
Why has nobody thought of a rear mount Zimmerman muffler that is mounted longitudinally such that the length of the can is straight back and hanging off the boom, rather being mounted than sideways? It would be more aerodynamically appealing, and might offer better mounting options?

Frankly I think that would look weird and need an unneccesary amount of header pipe compared to just mounting it on the side (as indeed their other design is). If you want a boom supported muffler then a Hanson Tuned pipe is like that ..supposedly with way more power and difficulty in tuning.

pgk
06-23-2009 10:35 PM
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rc3po
Heliman
Location: Land of Corruption - Illinois

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OK then, what about a high performance stock type muffler that sits in close to the body of the heli, minimizing balance disturbances, maybe kind of a non-symetrical shaped square, that mounts in the center much like the stock one does.

Dreaming again.... I know. And definately no muffler expert...Does it have to be a canister type?
06-23-2009 10:56 PM
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BLT4FUN
Heliman
Location: Lima, OH

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All this info is great to know but I'm in the middle of a
spectra build and still don't know what muffler to put on!

Its much easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!!!
06-23-2009 11:21 PM
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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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several of us are using the V4 you just have to check your bolts, they will come loose. I tighten or try and tighten mine after each flight when its hot, sometimes it stays tight for several flights but as soon as I stop checking they seem to come loose.

I dint think there is a perfect muffler yet Raja is trying the zimmerman side mount and he says its lighter than the V4

I have not seen very much info on the Hatori. worst case use the stock can muffler until Raja finishes testing the Zimmerman side mount.

CRASH! GLUE! REPEAT!
06-23-2009 11:27 PM
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rc3po
Heliman
Location: Land of Corruption - Illinois

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lol... me too. Gonna have'r all together without a muffler. But in all seriousness.. I've got time to watch how things iron out a bit. Just starting on mine... I have faith tho that with all the gasser experience hanging out here.. Somethings gonna pan out..
06-23-2009 11:31 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Use the stock Zenoah muffler and some heavy duty ear muffs (like on the aircraft carriers) and you should be alright.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-23-2009 11:57 PM
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rc3po
Heliman
Location: Land of Corruption - Illinois

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Oh I see... That's no good.. I hate ear muffs.
06-24-2009 12:32 AM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Look at the bright side. If you try to fly your Spectra with the stock Zenoah muffler (the black square), you'll never have to wait your turn at the flying field anymore (because they'll all have packed up and gone home).

It amazes me how loud some of these gasser airplanes are with their tiny "Pitts" style exhausts, but unlike the helicopters, gasser airplane (plank) pilots don't fly at full RPM the whole time.

Quote 
If you want a boom supported muffler then a Hanson Tuned pipe is like that ..supposedly with way more power and difficulty in tuning.

The Hanson tuned pipe is about 2 feet long. The Zimmerman can is only about 6 inches long.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-24-2009 01:07 AM
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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This is really nice guys!

OK, I've uploaded pictures of the zimmerman side mount to my gallery, check them out!

Went to fly it today (put in 3 flights/45 minutes in-between the rain) and I was delighted in every which way Here is a summary of the benefits:

#1, muffler weights 9.7oz, 3.3oz lights than the Century v4.
#2, bolts on with standard exhaust gasket and some red RTV to seal, and did not leak after 3 flights today and I didn't even have to retighten the bolts after the first flight. Mine didn't come with bolts, I picked some 16mm ones with lock washers from the hardware store for $1.85.
#3, you can hear the engine burp from it just like it does with the stock box muffler. This makes it much easier to set the low speed needle and you can tweak it down until the burping stops or almost stops.
#4, has excellent full power climbout, pretty comparable to the v4 can't really tell if one is better than the other.
#5, and this is the best part - doesn't leak, doesn't get loose. Or did I already mention that?

Its been reinforced to solve the cracking problem that was troubling it in the past. The rear mount zimmerman has not been reinforced "yet" so hence why it cracks. I did speak to Irwin about this today, as if it doesn't crack its surely the best muffler and a winner for the Spectra in my opinion. He said since the modifications, they have not cracked but if for some reason they crack he will #1 replace them and #2 reinforce the muffler even more to stop it permanently.

It does sit quite a ways back but in my case with the CF tailboom I need it back there as I need the tail weight. My heli is slightly nose heavy without it and very slightly nose heavy with it on. If you want it more centered on the model you can turn your engine around to face forwards and mount it on the left side. The tailpipe points to the side so it can mount on either side of the heli and still look right. Or if you want to be a wise guy you can mount it with the tailpipe facing forward and just fly backwards all the time!

I'm so happy with this barring waiting on me to see if it cracks over time I highly recommend this one as the best option for those of you who are building Spectra's now and looking for a muffler to buy. Irwin confirmed to me that he has them in stock and he's local here in the US so you'll get them within a couple of days when you order.

My heli ran so well with it and I was able to tweak the needles nice the tail was almost solid without shaking back and forth that little bit that it could. I tried all 3 speeds with the gv-1 and it handled them without any issues.

I just went down to take the pictures and upload so you guys can see it and now I'm getting used to the tailpipe sticking back its wearing on me. In a way it keeps the machine clean especially without the dreaded leaks that I always had with the v4 that ticked me off. Nothing worse than getting black oil on the engine and burnt on the muffler of your pretty clean "baby" that runs on gas.

I'll keep flying it and unless you hear otherwise from me its holding up with no issues. If for some reason it doesn't I'll be sure to give the feedback and let you guys know - I'm all about accurate reporting whether its good or bad.

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 865+ flights
06-24-2009 01:57 AM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Thanks for the update, Raja. Sounds like Irwin really wants to work with us.

With regards to the rear mount muffler causing the rear A frame to crack, is it possible that this would have happened anyways just due to aging of the airframe? Also, where exactly did you notice the cracking?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-24-2009 02:04 AM
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > zimmerman muffler
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