RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - zimmerman muffler

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > zimmerman muffler

BLT4FUN
Heliman
Location: Lima, OH

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Any body have any experience with the new zimmerman muffler designed for the spectra g? If so where can they be found? Thanks

Its much easier to ask for forgiveness than permission!!!

06-16-2009 12:30 AM

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Mike545
Senior Heliman
Location: gettysburg, pa

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get ahold of Rbort

Fly it like it's your buddy's

06-16-2009 12:58 AM

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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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I have Rajas here in my shop and it has stress cracks on all 4 corners of the mounting tabs. I was going to tig weld it but the whole thing is assembled like a heat exchanger and silver soldered. I can solder the cracks but the metal fatigue will just continue so some redesign needs to be done. I would recommend a century V4 or a Hatori 941 until this gets worked out

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06-16-2009 01:00 AM

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shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

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Yep, I had a problem with my header for a pipe that was assembled in the same manner. The stainless is a pain to have fixed. I think they are welded in a vaccum when manufactured. If the heating and cooling process isn't just right they will stress crack every time. Now my Zimmerman pipe on my gasser right now has been without any issues at all....but it's not the same mounting as the rear can type of muffler. All of the joints on the Zimmerman side mounted that I'm running now have doublers formed at all stressed joints. I don't know if they do this standard or just for Quick when Irwin had them make them for him. It's very quiet and smooth sounding.

Gas is Great
QWW Helis

06-16-2009 01:53 AM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I bought this Zimmerman muffler from RCMarket in Belgium last year for $245 US Dollars (during a time when there was a favorable US Dollar to Euro exchange rate). The mounting tabs are about 0.5mm wider than the back frame of my Spectra and the holes line up perfectly so the muffler pretty much just bolts right on. I have not been able to test how well the header lines up with the muffler inlet because I still have not received my engine yet, but I imagine it will require some modification to fit perfectly.

Raja was instrumental in getting this muffler to be produced and had to send his one and only "prototype" Zimmerman muffler to German for several months so they could supposedly copy it. If you want to read more about this muffler's inception, look at these two threads which chronicle the adventure:

http://runryder.com/helicopter/t460862p1/

http://runryder.com/helicopter/t478223p1/

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

06-16-2009 12:53 PM

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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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The one that Raja sent back and used in those articles is the one I have here now. It cracked at all 4 ends of those mounting tabs were they attach. It is metal fatigue from vibration at the attachment point. I am going to try and repair the cracks and put a thin plate at this point to strengthen it.

This is going to be a problem for this mount system until this is redesigned and strengthened

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06-16-2009 05:40 PM

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BLT4FUN
Heliman
Location: Lima, OH

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Great insight guys. Looks like the zimmerman rear mount still has some issues as well as pricy and hard to get. What would be the best alternative?

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06-16-2009 05:46 PM

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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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I'm using the V4 and Raja just got one as well. there are some experiments going on to add a second mounting point to the V-4. I have not seen the clamp yet that Raja is testing. and I have made one as well and will test it as soon as I get my fan shroud back later this week ( hopefully) if it doesn't show I will put the stock fan/shroud back on as raja did.

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06-16-2009 05:53 PM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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TaleGunner, are you using the Wally fan/shroud?

I thought Zimmerman repaired Raja's muffler last December. Am I understanding you correctly that the welds have failed again? Are they breaking where the mounting flanges attach to the body of the muffler?

Quote
Looks like the zimmerman rear mount still has some issues as well as pricy and hard to get.

It is definitely pricey.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

06-16-2009 10:00 PM

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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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Quote
TaleGunner, are you using the Wally fan/shroud?

Yes, but I broke my shroud and have been waiting for a replacment.

Quote
I thought Zimmerman repaired Raja's muffler last December. Am I understanding you correctly that the welds have failed again?

Yes Rajas Zimmerman has sever cracks at all 4 ends of the mounting tabs in the muffler can itself and was leaking. I have been trying to tig weld it but ether the contamination from the inside or the alloy itself is causing small pin holes in the weld. I am trying to find the alloy used by Zimmerman and then put some reinforcing patches at each point.

I would not recommend this setup at the current time because this is very clearly metal fatigue.

Raja has some really good Ideas and I am tinkering with a couple of them right now. I don't have a fancy machine shop just a hobby lathe and mill and all the welding equipment one could want, so hopefully we will come up with and idea that everyone can do.

I do like the V-4, my only complaint would be the bolts like to come loose no mater how or what you use to tighten them. just check them every flight and you will be fine. Raja thinks by adding a second mounting point from the can to the engine this will solve this problem.

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06-16-2009 11:28 PM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Do you think the Zimmerman muffler could be redesigned to not suffer this metal fatigue?

I thought Raja got a couple of years worth of use out of his Zimmerman muffler before it started leaking?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

06-16-2009 11:38 PM

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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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I think if the mount was redesigned a little and some rubber dampers installed it might help. There is is still a chance its just the stainless alloy is is wrong or too thin for this application. as with most things made from metal the MFG walks a fine line between weight and strength. My other thought would be to make the rear can out of aluminum instead of stainless. ether way the V-4 makes more power or so I am told so I will continue to try and resolve that issue and let Zimmerman fix his can

as for how long Raja had that setup I'm not positive but I thought it was new last fall when all the work was started on them. I will ask him to be sure.

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06-17-2009 12:03 AM

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imnxtc
Veteran
Location: Dawson

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Why not just go to the new Century V4 at only $139.00?

The three running locally work very well.

06-17-2009 01:43 AM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Quote
Why not just go to the new Century V4 at only $139.00?

Because the Zimmerman muffler looks better, but is it really worth an additional $100 dollars? Moreso, is it really worth it if it is going to break?

Quote
as for how long Raja had that setup I'm not positive but I thought it was new last fall when all the work was started on them. I will ask him to be sure.

I think that Raja bought his Zimmerman muffler from someone else who used it on his helicopter for awhile. This person had Zimmerman custom manufacture it for him, which is why it was not available when I went to buy mine last year. Raja told me when I first started this Spectra project that the Zimmerman muffler was the best, and I got the impression from this comment that he had been using it for quite some time.

My biggest concern is not how long Raja had the muffler for, but rather the fact that Raja had his muffler repaired by Zimmerman himself over the Christmas holiday. I assume come March of 2009, the muffler was essentially "good as new". Why then would the repairs fail so quickly?

I think a few other people (like a guy named Marco) have the same version of the muffler that I do. Excalibur got one of the first version of the Zimmerman Spectra muffler and has been flying his for perhaps a year now. I will PM both of them now and see if they can comment here.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

06-17-2009 02:47 AM

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TaleGunner
Elite Veteran
Location: Deer Park WA

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find out if any are cracking around the mount ends.

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06-17-2009 02:54 AM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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I PM'd both of them and asked them to join in the conversation.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

06-17-2009 03:07 AM

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Excalibur
Veteran
Location: Destination: Earth

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Sorry guys. . . Just after our long and involved thread back in fall lead to a good mounting method with encouraging results, my Spectra locked-up and went in. Haven't been able to get it back together since then because of, well, life.

I did have several tanks of fuel through the muffler without any fatigued metal or loose hardware, however. It also survived a hard nose-in crash from hover with a short chicken dance and came out unscathed, so I am encouraged.

Here's my thoughts on the wide-mount versus narrow-mount Zimmerman mufflers:

I am curious if the wide-spaced muffler that I have installed on my Spectra could better withstand the vibrations from the engine for a number of reasons:

1. Much wider mounting flanges wrap further around the can and provide more attach area to spread out vibrational forces.

2. Wider spacing between the two flanges lessens the vibrational forces at the "focal point" of attach (where it's welded), as on the narrow-mount type. (Think leverage).

3. The possibility that the spacers I have between the muffler flanges and the heli frame could lessen, or absorb, some of the vibrations. Perhaps they change the resonance?

Here's a pic to refresh your memory:

Just my two cents worth, and I won't know for sure until after I get more flight time on it, but I think I'm on the right path. What do you guys think?

Xcal

Camper Fuel: It's Not Just for Breakfast Anymore

06-17-2009 03:49 AM

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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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The scoop

The zimmerman muffler that I had which was specially made for the Spectra ran for about 9 months in my Spectra (including the 80 days it took to round trip to zimmerman for repairs). I got a few months out of it before it started to leak. Went back to zimmerman in December to repair the leaks. Got it back in February and it ran for about a month+ before it started to leak again. But that's not the biggest issue....

During this time with that muffler being mounted on the rear A-frame the A-frame cracked a couple of times, I assume from the weight of the muffler and vibrations transferred from the engine. This is the #1 annoying reason that I decided to get a v4 and try that out.

So what's the findings, here goes:

Zimmerman: Over time cracks and leaks. No leaks at header to engine. A-frame cracking on Spectra - not enough meat with the spark plug clearance hole to support the muffler.

On the 1005, the zimmerman is mounted to the side CF frames. It did leak and I did send it out and had it welded several years ago, been running great ever since. Its a winner on the 1005, the Spectra I thought it would be great but it turned out to be a disappointment.

As for the V4, it sounds great, runs nice. The only thing that is a miss on it is I can't get it to stay sealed. It will leak after a few flights after you redo the seal. I'm experimenting with a 2nd mount to see if that helps.

I don't think I'm the only one with leaks on the v4. If I could get that fixed that would be awesome as that is my only sore spot on it.

-=>Raja.

1005 Xcell Gas, G26 3D Max, 2195+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3D Max, 855+ flights

06-17-2009 04:17 AM

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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

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Wow, that's not very reassuring news for the Zimmerman muffler.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies

06-17-2009 04:35 AM

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turboomni
Elite Veteran
Location: 63 Rambler Down By The Dumpster

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Too bad as my Zimmereman muffler is great and has never given me problems,,BUT it is the one designed for the 1005 and is on one.

Setup is everything, All my heli's can fly better than I can pilot them

06-17-2009 05:19 AM

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