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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Piston damage
 
 
WillyS
Heliman
Location: HOBART, OK USA

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Whatever happened with the engine?
07-14-2009 02:50 PM
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darko
Senior Heliman
Location: Bosnia

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I have update about my gasser !
As I wanted to try to repair my engine by just replacing the piston and ring and it did not work I got the new piston , ring, and cylinder and I replaced it. That is not all as I did not want this to happen again so I ordered also new century cooling fan and century shroud !
So this is to be used on my 20 ei engine !
I have to make the base plate for the fan and I would appreciate if sb. who did it could send me the drawing of it , what it should look like with all dimensions ( Fixit , Ranger , or sb else ). This would facilitate my work on the gassser.
Any advice is more than welcome how to do it best or what to pay attention to !
08-07-2009 09:11 PM
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Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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Hi darko
The first picture is the Century mounting plate and the second picture shows how I extended it to fit and bolt in the frames.



I only like to fly gassed up
08-08-2009 10:34 AM
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AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

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I did a similar thing with my steel frame only I used the existing part and just screwed it to an angle piece that ties into the vertical members.



Ace
What could be more fun?
08-08-2009 01:35 PM
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Billme
Elite Veteran
Location: MS

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Wally has some thick compressible gaskets you need to use on the insulator on the G 20. In fact, they do great on all the gas engines and will not leak...

I will also be getting a Hanson G20 to test next week after IRCHA...
08-08-2009 03:08 PM
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Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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Quote 
Wally has some thick compressible gaskets you need to use on the insulator
Would they be cut out of Teflon by any chance?

Quote 
I will also be getting a Hanson G20 to test next week after IRCHA...
Now that sounds interesting, just a shame Zenoah doesn’t make the improvements and produce a performance engine for Heli use.

I only like to fly gassed up
08-08-2009 05:45 PM
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darko
Senior Heliman
Location: Bosnia

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But who is Wally and how could I buy it from him ?

I also bought the new insulator and the new stock gasket when I ordered the cylinder and piston !
08-08-2009 08:01 PM
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Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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Scan of the shroud mounting plate



I only like to fly gassed up
08-09-2009 01:52 AM
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Billme
Elite Veteran
Location: MS

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Wally is C.A.P here on RR... They are not Teflon..They are a more compressible regular looking gasket material..I doubled up and glued two together between the insulator and engine...

Its most acceptable in the heli position for as carb position..

In airplane position the the ears are more close to the bolts that hold it to the engine and it more solid...In heli position it folds the ears back when you tighten the carb...
You also want to add another 4mm washer that cover the whole area instead of just the steel insert..Whats happening is when it heats up, it just backs off on the insert, and starts leaking...Just add the 4mm washer..

If the inserts are sticking out on the engine side, you need to heat them and punch them back even with the edge on the engine side of the insulator before installing it..


Its seals good now in the heli position using this material..

This was one of the first things I ran into testing the G20...

This is one of the main reasons you guys have been hurting your engines , not to mention poor cooling air with these conversions..
08-09-2009 07:20 AM
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Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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Quote 
This is one of the main reasons you guys have been hurting your engines , not to mention poor cooling air with these conversions..

I never had a problem with either unless the muffler came loose but I did use home made Teflon gaskets from day one.

Quote 
If the inserts are sticking out on the engine side, you need to heat them and punch them back even with the edge on the engine side of the insulator before installing it..


Great idea, I ground them flat and never thought about using heat and pressing them back in.

I only like to fly gassed up
08-09-2009 03:07 PM
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darko
Senior Heliman
Location: Bosnia

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Update after installing new piston, ring and cylinder

I installed all the new parts and still I have a problem of the engine running rich ! It looks like the problem is my carb , I tried to experiment with the metering lever setting it to different heights and got the engine running well but my high needle was at only half turn while the low needle was at 1 3/8 and the engine sounded well and had that burble every 5 seconds ( of running a bit rich )but then the problem was the transition from idle to hover it did not want to to accelerate to middle stick unless I increased the low needle to 2 turns !
I was trying to follow the rule to have the height of meter at 1.7 mm under the level of the carb but no success !
I put the new diaphragm ,levering meter, and the guys in in the lawnmowers shop checked it , cleaned it , attached it to pressure pump and they said it was good .
They put the level of the metering above the level suggested and the engine run well at hover and above as I described but the problem was reaching the revs for hover , the transition as I described !
And then I was playing with height of the needle but without success !

If I get the level of the metering lever higher should it cause opening the needles more or turning them in ?
I am not quite clear how the level of the metering lever effects the needles ?
I would appreciate the advice !

I installed the predator cooling system and the engine is cooled well !
Now the maximum temperature I get is 140 degrees Celzius but the engine is still not run in and before with stock cooling szstem it was over 180 degrees easily !
09-04-2009 09:24 AM
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AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

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I think it is time for a compression test. Maybe bearing seals are bad when the first piston and ring went bad.

My only other guess and it is a guess is the metering valve is not closing. Only explation for the 1/2 turn high needle.

Ace
What could be more fun?
09-04-2009 01:20 PM
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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You're barking up the wrong tree...

#1, the engine will start and run with the high speed needle CLOSED.

So, with the high speed needle open only 1/2 a turn, its going to lean out and stumble once you go past 1/2 throttle.

#2, if its burbly rich that's all from the low needle. The high needle is for full power and I bet you at 1/2 turn open if you try to climb full power its going to bog down and choke due to low fuel.

#3, don't mess around with the carb metering. That should be a last resort thing and in most cases its not the issue and people start fiddling with stuff that was ok in the first place due to too much information and not enough knowledge of how to apply it all.

Try to close the low needle a little bit and open the high needle to 1 3/8. Now that you fiddled with the metering of the carb not sure how exactly its going to run with needles as they may not be standard any more.

In any case, if you lean the low end it shouldn't go less than 1 1/4.
The high end range is 1 3/8 to 1 5/8. Low end is 1 1/4 to 1 3/8.

Running at 140C seems really hot. That is like 284F. You need to bring it down to below 130C to enter the safe zone and it could be as low as 100C in cold weather. Ideally in summer try to shoot for 120 to 125C on the carb side hottest part you can find on the cylinder. Remember those numbers come from my temp guage, so yours might read a little different.

-=>Raja.

1005 Gasser, G26 3DMax++, 2205+ flights
Spectra-g, G26 3DMax, 865+ flights
09-04-2009 03:28 PM
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darko
Senior Heliman
Location: Bosnia

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Quote 
#1, the engine will start and run with the high speed needle CLOSED.

Yes I know it !

Quote 
#2, if its burbly rich that's all from the low needle. The high needle is for full power and I bet you at 1/2 turn open if you try to climb full power its going to bog down and choke due to low fuel.

That it how it should be , I know it but I have just come from the field , I had to reduce the low needle below zero and my high needle is at 3/8 and I have full power lift with that. It is strange I know but I had to reduce the needles and with this setting I have nice hover with burbling every 5 seconds and I can do full power lift . The temp is between 130 and 140 Celzius but the problem is that with this setting when I land the temperature goes dow to 105 Celzius and it does not want to go down to 80 , so it looks like it is lean at idle.
If I raise the needles the heli can get into hover but with the constant burbling and there is no way to give the full power, as soon as I cross the hover point the heli produces just strange sound and loses power totally.

Quote 
#3, don't mess around with the carb metering. That should be a last resort thing and in most cases its not the issue and people start fiddling with stuff that was ok in the first place due to too much information and not enough knowledge of how to apply it all.

I know that was foolish I should not have change the factory settings of the needle but I was desperate as I couldnt get the heli work properly.
My metering lever is set higher than it should at the moment as I could not get the engine work properly with the factory suggested setting.

Thanks for your help !

If anybody has the carb for 20 ei for sale please let me know!
09-04-2009 05:13 PM
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darko
Senior Heliman
Location: Bosnia

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I went to the field again and with the settings which were good at the previous flight ( apart from the idle which was lean as I described ) the heli would not start ( low needle 3/8 and the high 3/8 ). I know you will say that it is way lean ,I would say the same thing but believe me that my engine is still a tad rich with these settings , I even had a look at plug and the colour is perfect , chocolate brown.
Maybe the reason for this is the height of the metering lever .
Anyway to continue , with this setting from the previous flight I cant start the engine when cold and I have to open the low needle to 1 1/8 and it starts immediately but as soon as it warms up I have to lower the low needle to 3/8 and the engine is good giving the burble occasionaly and the full power climb is achieved !

I am totally confused and I do not know why is this happening !

I even have video of it but my computer will not read the memory card ( SD HC 4GB ). I have to see how I can upload it as I do not have USB cable for my Panasonic FX 35 camera 1
09-04-2009 07:27 PM
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AceBird
Elite Veteran
Location: Utica, NY USA

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I think your needle seat is not closing and that may be because you messed with the height or it may be dirt in the seat. If it doesn't close the engine will tend to flood during running because the pump just keeps on pumping. So you crank down the needles and it acts like it is happy. But try and get it started after you stop when the pump isn't going full blast.

Anything sound familiar here?

Ace
What could be more fun?
09-04-2009 09:47 PM
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lejon
Senior Heliman
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada

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Darko my understanding of the metering lever is that if it is set too high (more open than called for) it will allow more fuel through the carb. This in turn would require less opening for the high and low.

If you were to set the metering lever close to the recommended setting I think you would then have to open your high and low needles. Conversely if you set the metering lever too low (reduced fuel flow) then you would have to open the high and low where they might run just right at 2 or 3 turns out.

Additionally if you are getting irradic running check to make sure that your spark plug wire is not arcing to the frame. In low light pull and or start the engine and look for sparks. I have one of the (spark checkers (non-contact voltage testors)) and get reading all along the wire but in the dark only had arcing where the frame touched the wired. It was intermittent for me becasue the vibration caused it to not be in constant contact with the frame. Even if you do not see any spark put a piece of fuel tube inbetween the sparkplug wire and the frame (I guess this mostly applies to the SpectraG) then run it to see if it makes a difference.

Just my 2 cents

Lejon
09-04-2009 10:38 PM
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darko
Senior Heliman
Location: Bosnia

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Quote 
If you were to set the metering lever close to the recommended setting I think you would then have to open your high and low needles. Conversely if you set the metering lever too low (reduced fuel flow) then you would have to open the high and low where they might run just right at 2 or 3 turns out.

That is what I thought , but I tried to get metering lever at right position ( 1.7 cm beneath the top of carb) and even lower but then I got the same rich run and it was even richer

Quote 
Additionally if you are getting irradic running check to make sure that your spark plug wire is not arcing to the frame. In low light pull and or start the engine and look for sparks. I have one of the (spark checkers (non-contact voltage testors)) and get reading all along the wire but in the dark only had arcing where the frame touched the wired. It was intermittent for me becasue the vibration caused it to not be in constant contact with the frame. Even if you do not see any spark put a piece of fuel tube inbetween the sparkplug wire and the frame (I guess this mostly applies to the SpectraG) then run it to see if it makes a difference.

This is good point , I had this arcing in my predator and it looked the same burble like the rich engine but I did not pay the attention to it here as in my understanding the ignition is grounded so if the protective wire is touching the frame ( it touches my frame ) it should not have the effect on the arcing. I might be wrong , just tell me ! But I will check it !
09-04-2009 10:55 PM
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shawmcky
Key Veteran
Location: Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

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Do you have a metal shield on your lead?

If you do you should remove it.It might be a good idea to fit a new carb as well as it sounds as if you are going to have real problem getting it back to spec,if the mix screws have been overtightened at any time this could enlarge the seats and it may never run as it should.A new carb would get away from internal problems and at least you would know where you are I.M.H.O.

Team- unbiased opinion,no experts here just trying to help thats all.K.I.S.S principle upheld here
09-05-2009 08:17 AM
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Fixit
Elite Veteran
Location: UK

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Have you removed the muffler and looked at the piston after these carb problems? You might well be back where you were.

I have to say I agree with shawmcky about trying another carb and if that doesn’t solve your problem I would rebuild the motor and make sure you have no leeks anywhere.

I only like to fly gassed up
09-05-2009 08:48 AM
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Piston damage
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