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Engines Plugs Mufflers Fuel > irvine 39 throttle arm problems!!!?
 
 
-=SiM=-
Heliman
Location: London, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		yesterday, the throttle arm on my irvine 39 broke off. again. for the THIRD time! luckily i havent crashed the heli yet.
i have called irvine, but they said that i was the first with the problem, told me some "helpful" advice like trying different fuel. and sent me a new one. i've checke the whole helicopter over and nothing seem to be able to cause any vibrations. however just recently i noticed that near midstick (0 pitch) the heli starts to vibrate violently. these are low freq vibratons.
the specs are:

raptor 30 v1
irvine 39
hatory 330 tuned pipe
bbt 550 carbon main blades

any ideas?

SiM
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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Phil_Mart
Veteran
Location: Newcastle UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Low frequency vibrations are generated by slow (relatively) moving parts and high frequency by fast moving bits. So the engines zipping round at 15000 + rpm and will generate high frequency. Therefore look to your head balance for the source of your problems. Could be main shaft alignment, flybar balance, blade balance or even the overall balance of the head. Also make sure the tail end is all tight as I think you can get some vibes of these tail belt drive systems.
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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-=SiM=-
Heliman
Location: London, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		i'll check the head again. i just had a yearly check on it and replaced spindle, feathering bearings and flybar.

but still, what can possibly cause throttle arm to break off?
there's no binding anywhere. the only thing i can think of is that i have a metal glow extention plate (homemade) mounted between engine and sideframe.

this happened 3 times now and it always breaks at exactly same place, on the first bend from engine. does anyone know any better throttle arms maybe from another engine which will fit irvine 39? i'd like some nice beefy one, like the one on mds 38. (btw this is long throttle arm)

and yes i am running 15% coolpower. lovely fuel and very clean. i used to have model technics on my mds, and it totaly screwed it up, not to mention that i had to scrub the whole heli from oil and dirt after every flight.

SiM
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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Phil_Mart
Veteran
Location: Newcastle UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		If your breaking throttle arms like that then either the arms are crap or your stressing them some how?

Are your ATV's set so that you do not over travel at the limits?

Lets face it, you have a plastic ball joint at either end, one on the arm the other on the servo. I would have thought you would screw the servo long before breaking the arm. Unless again, the arms are crap!

I don't know the engine exactly, but have a look at Quick UK's site for the extended throttle arms. If yours would take the fitments over a throttle barrel type arm then you could fit one of these. I did that with my TT 39 although I had to drill out the bore of the arm to get it to fit, but then theres plenty of meat on the arms.

Engine running lean (raspy) or too high a head rev might be causing a high frequency vibe that could be the culprit also!
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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-=SiM=-
Heliman
Location: London, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		i've just been on the phone with irvine.
i was told that the tuned pipe must be the problem. ( i cant imagine what else)
the standart main needle settings on 39 are 2 1/4 turns, i have it on 1 1/2. toooo lean, but if i reachen it out i dont get power at all...
i'll try to fit thunder tiger stock muffler and see what happens and maybe later do a bench run wiht the pipe.
what prop can i use with 39 (heli)? and what's the best way to fit it?

what's the proper method of tuning the pipe? on helicopters that is...
heard somewhere that for planes you jsut vary the gap as the engine runs until you get the most power. abit hard to do on heli

SiM
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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Phil_Mart
Veteran
Location: Newcastle UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Sim,

Read the other thread with Niklas. You don't alter the gap (as such), you shorten the pipe (header section).

If your running it that lean you will be getting a shed load of high vibes that can do damage, as well as over heating the engine and killing it. Richen it up so its nice and smoky and cool, then start shortening the pipe down to bring back the power. But as I've said before, don't go too mad or you'll end up with an engine developing a shed load of power but at a very narrow rev band thats no good for a heli.
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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MJA
Key Veteran
Location: UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I wouldn't worry too much,Irvine arms eventually break anyway because they're crap for heli use,a small strip of thin Z bent metal like they supply as a throttle arm soon fatigues if there is any vibes about.Using a tuned pipe has an aggresive pipe pulse compared to a muffler too but mainly it's the revs that small 32-39's do.Wether the vibes on your heli are "normal" is bad to say without seeing it but if you can't see any fuel foaming in the main tank,skids shaking or tail fins,boom stays blurring ,it can't be too bad
.I used to make my own arms out of reasonably thick brass strip and they never broke again.You may have to wind the low end in further into the brass sleeve as a thicker new arm puts it further out than before.

Martin
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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Raptor_in_Swede
Senior Heliman
Location: Stockholm /Sweden

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Sim
Is it the Hatori 333 pipe or the 350 pipe you are using ?
The 333 pipe is on limit to be too small for a Irvine 39.
You may ask Just Engines http://www.justengines.unseen.org/ if they have better throttle arm fitting the Irvine 39 carb.

Raptor 30V1/TT39H/Hatori#415/GY401_9253
Hirobo GPH GT/TT50H/Hatori #544/GY401_9254
RD8000
06-19-2003 Over year old.
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-=SiM=-
Heliman
Location: London, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		i'm not completely sure which pipe i have acutally. i think it's 350 since i cant find any reference to 330.

today however a weird thing happened. i set the gap length to 1mm. and test flew the heli. sluggish.. no power
leaned it out (was 2 turns out) to 1.7 turns. better.. but still crap.
flew it around like that (this is happening in my back yard.. not alot of space), landed it started to take off again and that's when the weird thing happened. the headspeed went maaaaaad. LOADS of power, sharp cyclic and coolective responce. but too high heaspeed. after 10 sec flight i flipped the T-hold and autoed it down. but it "hanged on the pipe" for few sec. i'm not sure whether it's good or bad. but it happened before. well i suppose the pipe went "on" after about 2 min of 10 sec flights and little autos it turned off. and the heli went back to sluggish. i just richened the main needle abit just at the begining. after minute after that it just switched off. and i coud do nothing to reproduce the effect.
any ideas?

also later on the day i noticed the funny sound at idle, turned out that one of the manifold bolts came loose. can it be because of this that it had the power?
i just dont know what to do now. the heli is very sluggish and i cant lean it out anymore since the enigine is already very hot. spit on the head dissapears in less than a second after 10 min flight. and i already burnt 3 fingers on the back plate.
geeez i almost desided to shove the stock tt muffler on. although it doesnt fit and the arm has to bent alot.
help would greatly be appriciated.

can anyone who live around london, Uk help me set the pipe up?

SiM
06-19-2003 Over year old.
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Raptor_in_Swede
Senior Heliman
Location: Stockholm /Sweden

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		With the burn´t fingers you describe, the engine is to lean.
You should be able hold a tip of a finger on the backplate during several second after flight, without getting burned.
I have an idea that you have a too short pipe length (length from piston to first reflection wall). This can give overheating problems.

What happend when you leaned out the engine was that the engine could rev-up a bit more and hit the pipe resonance pipe.
When you then richen it up this did not happend.

I would try to lengthen the "pipe" length with approx. 10 mm ( half an inch) and see what happends. You may lower the pipe resonance to the rpm you likae to have.
And the worst thing that can happend with a too long pipe is that it will not work as a pipe, but as a large volume muffler.

Raptor 30V1/TT39H/Hatori#415/GY401_9253
Hirobo GPH GT/TT50H/Hatori #544/GY401_9254
RD8000
06-20-2003 Over year old.
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Reesy
Key Veteran
Location: In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Sim
Been there, done that.. had throttle arms go, massive overheating.. Rap30 V1.. tried QuickUK fan and NHP shroud which made a big improvement but last week I finally decided life was to short.
Filed the Irvine in the dustbin and bought a TT39.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings

Paul
AKA Ting Tong
.... ...... ...from Tooting
06-20-2003 Over year old.
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Raptor_in_Swede
Senior Heliman
Location: Stockholm /Sweden

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi again
Would not through away the Irvine 39 directly.
I have seen Caliber 30 with a Irvine 39 and Weston Onepiece pipe doing a very 3D show by a team from RIPMAX UK.

If you want better cooling of the engine, do a fan shroud extension according to this http://www.raptortechnique.com/fanshroud.htm#2
I have the fan shroud extension made of laser copy overhead transparancy.

Raptor 30V1/TT39H/Hatori#415/GY401_9253
Hirobo GPH GT/TT50H/Hatori #544/GY401_9254
RD8000
06-20-2003 Over year old.
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tommytee
Senior Heliman
Location: NorthEast UK, Newcastle

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I've a irvine .39 which I'm running in with a bench setup atm. After about ten tanks of coolpower 15 it is running very strong at 2 1/4 turns out. It'll run out a full rap30 tank on full throttle and the backplate is warm. After stopping it the backplate is cold after a couple mins. Did you run in your engine correctly, you may have cooked it running lean on early runs. I also thought the throttle arm looks a little suspect. haven't fittted it to the heli yet but dont think it will clear the frame/muffler.
Quote 
what prop can i use with 39 (heli)? and what's the best way to fit it?


Use a 10x5 prop and the irvine parts
S-39-1195 Prop Driver
S-39-1205 collet
S-61-1190 Prop Washer

All parts available from http://www.justengines.unseen.org/

Good Luck !
06-21-2003 Over year old.
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Reesy
Key Veteran
Location: In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		OK.. started with minipipe off OS32.. hopeless, couldn't get needles set.
Replaced with zimmerman muffler, instant success.. ran fine until I decided I "needed more power" NOT a good move.
After minipipe experiences went against advice to get 350 and tried 540 Hatori ..all sorts of problems so gave up.
By now engine was overheating so new piston and liner... still overheating.
Found air leak in carb which improved things a bit but still overheating.
QuickUK fan and NHP cooling shroud gave an improvement but still a bit marginal, one day it ran like a swiss watch .. next it would overheat.
Finally decided that this type of weather was too valuable to spend piŁ$ing about with needles and taking engines in and out ad infinitum.

My chum had pretty much the same experience with his.

Paul
AKA Ting Tong
.... ...... ...from Tooting
06-21-2003 Over year old.
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CRJ700
Heliman
Location:

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Irvine 39 throttle arm replacement

on my irvine 39 I am using the throttle arm off of a TT39 with the hole enlarged slightly. No more breaking problems, and it is the perfect length to clear the side frames of a Raptor 30 v2
06-24-2003 Over year old.
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-=SiM=-
Heliman
Location: London, UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		i borrowed zimmerman muffler from a friend and just like Reesy said... INSTANT SUCCESS. TONS of power. had to richen it up to 2.4 turns (from 1.5 that was needed just to get it off the ground) and the head is still abit high.
it now climbs inverted like mad. first time i managed to come down on inverted hover to 6-8 meters.

i'm gonna sell the pipe now and go for the muffler. the pipe does give more power but it's such a pain in @$$ to set it up. it should be very good for os32.

i also changed the plug to F7. very nice plug, very hot. endine idles very well on it. the only problem i have now with the muffler is that throttle cut doesnt work. it still idles on throttle cut. very very very quietly, i can hardly hear it, but if i release the thr cut it springs back to life. (my throttle linkage geometry is abit off. i had to twist the throttle arm abit i dont have the low end ofthe throttle but have full positive. worked well on thepipe where it was almost cutting on idle.)

i hate pipe now... and i understand why other people do
i was so happy with it untill i learned how to set it up

SiM
06-27-2003 Over year old.
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Reesy
Key Veteran
Location: In the doghouse ... Nottingham UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi Sim
Good to see your having success, now I would give serious thought to 1. the QuickUK fan (the cooling on the V1 is marginal) and 2. the NHP subframe stiffener with cooling extension. Because they made just as much improvement again as the zimmerman.
My Irvine was like the naughty girl, when it was good it was VERY VERY good but when it was bad it was better.. no.. I'm sure I'm thinking of someone else....

I gave up because it was 18 months old and flying time is limited enough as it is .. also check the carb for air leaks .. temps will tell you all of the above

Paul
AKA Ting Tong
.... ...... ...from Tooting
06-27-2003 Over year old.
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MJA
Key Veteran
Location: UK

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Sim,
Did you use an F7 with the pipe,an F7 is far too hot for an Irvine on a pipe,i used to use Firepower F4 with the 36F1 on a pipe with 5% nitro, which is colder than an Enya3.
A high compression engine in a hot installation (where the fan cooling isn't mega brilliant)
will pre ignite badly with a hot plug unless set to be very very rich in the mid range and top end.Hot plug will smooth out a rich idle but that's not where the engine spends much of it's time.Better to live with a rich low end if that means getting the mid and top end right.

Pipes i used to use were Burley46 (no longer available),Older style Genesis , Perkins power pipe,the more chamber volume the better.


I know a 39 isn't an F1 but similiar principles apply as a 39 is just a re work of the 36 and F1 engine with a somewhat over inflated price tag


Martin
06-27-2003 Over year old.
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Raptor_in_Swede
Senior Heliman
Location: Stockholm /Sweden

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		My experience of Modeltechnics Firepower glowplugs in helis are not good. The Firepower glowplugs has not enough catalytic effect for the use in heli. If you select a hot F-no for max full throttle power you will have problems with overheating hover (or transition to hover rpms) and rough idle, and if you select a medium F-no for good idle and hover you will not have full throttle power.
Modeltechnics http://www.modeltechnics.com./ recommend their MaxFlash glowplugs for better THROTTLABILITY, that is needed in helis. A good throttle response are mandatory in helis, where you change the throttle from nearly idle to nearly full throttle during most 3D and aerobatic manouvres.
According to the experience of most RC-Heli flyers, Enya 3 , OS#8 and OS A3 has very good catalythic effect and gives a very good throttlability and full throttle power.

Raptor 30V1/TT39H/Hatori#415/GY401_9253
Hirobo GPH GT/TT50H/Hatori #544/GY401_9254
RD8000
06-30-2003 Over year old.
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turbocivic4
Veteran
Location: Hawaii Maui

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		TT39 Throttle Arm Longer?

Just checking to see if the tt39 throttle arm is really farther out then the os32 and irvine engines and where would you get one?
02-08-2004 Over year old.
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