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Synergy R/C Synergy N9 > How to make a lighter N9 with great power
 
 
missle
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chester, Oh

My Posts This: Topic  Forum

No its not about just a weight reduction but more of a combination of things: no more alignment of motor to fan to frame which makes motor instillation/removal much easier, increase in power to the drivetrain, less parts, possibly more efficient cooling, conti ued cooling even at idle and after motor shutdown, half the weight, ect.....
On the downside, others have said that the fan uses ~ 200 additional mah of bat pwr so number of flights per charge is reduced, its easy to forget to turn the fan on, making the mounting plates as theres no comercially available parts for the N9 and an electric fan, ect.....

Now the next project will be to make an electric tail which leaves all the nitro pwr for the main blades. Im thinking an inrunner mounted to the tail block and this way reduce theweight of the crown gear, torque-tube, and tail transmission. We'll see.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!
08-10-2009 12:01 PM
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Bart B
Key Veteran
Location: A thousand miles from nowhere

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Talk to Chuck with the Synergizer.
He's done the driven tail.
08-10-2009 12:33 PM
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missle
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chester, Oh

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yea i read his thread on that mod and really liked it, but id really like to eliminate as many parts as possible ( like TT, belts, gears) and i really want to use an out/inrunner with an extra long main shaft that will serve as the tail shaft. Im thinking something like a scorpion and just find the correct diameter. Now the question is how do i figure how much power do i need?

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!
08-10-2009 04:10 PM
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Sam2b
Elite Veteran
Location: Seattle, WA - USA

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I agree the electric fan is a risk for failure, but it would be really cool (no pun intended) to some how have a device that sensed when the fan has failed and cut the engine to 20% throttle so you can land immediately. Or something like that. Otherwise I really like the idea! Nice design, too.

The other thought I had, similar to a traditional shroud, is to extend the two shrouds all the way down to the rear of the engine head so it directs the air completely through and across the engine head - basically two long rectangles. But then you have to create supports for the longer pieces.

I am wondering if the increased power is because of the less engine drag by removing the fan. Probably so.

_Sam B_
08-10-2009 06:23 PM
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missle
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chester, Oh

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Yes the thought of failure has occured but its quickly dismissed as ANY elecrical part on the heli can fail at the drop of a hat, of which i'd actually perfer that it be the fan as oppossed to one of the servos. In reality, the nitro motor is 100 times more likely to. There's reports of folks forgetting to run their fan of which the motor is not damaged (allthough likely).
Heck, if anyone has a heli thats guanteed not to have a part fail at some point in the future, then they'd be rich .

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!
08-10-2009 09:02 PM
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helinewby
Senior Heliman
Location: Mason Ohio

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		missle and the N9

i am the one who convinced missle to get the N9. Although latley i hadnt kept up with his E fan conversion that he had been working on like my Compass Odin. Today i had a chance to watch him fly the synergy at one of our local field and i promise you i have owned 5 N9's and seen a bunch more and this one IMO puts them all to shame no sh-t. The power that this thing has is unreal. I think when Common sense opens up in the morning i am going to buy all of there E fans and ESC to boot!!!

Great job on the conversion!!!!! missle

C.B.

stop typing and go burn some more fuel!
08-24-2009 03:07 AM
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missle
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chester, Oh

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Now that I've got the electric fan running great, this bird is really POPP'N now

So now my full attention (minus the part dealing with my Outrage 550) is going into building an electric tail. Like I mentioned earlier, my goal is to actually make the total tail mod (motor to bats to wires) weight the same or even less than the stock system. My goal is to be able to remove the following parts:
-Torque tube
-Transmission Output assy
-Torque tube couplers (front and rear)
-Tail gearbox assy
-Crown gear
-crown gear hub

For added parts, this is what I'm looking to start with:
-Electric motor (out or inrunner)
-40-80A ESC
-4-6S lipo in the 1320-2200 range (this may change as I may just power all the electrics with a single lipo with a higher-end UBEC/BEC so as to eliminate the need for a seperate lipo)
-Tail box (that connects to the boom and has the motor mounted on it as well as the stock tail rotor bell crank)

I'm using a HS figure of 1950, of which the stock tail ratio is 4.67:1 which means I need a tail rotor speed ~ 9107. Using a tail HS of 9107, if I go with 4S (15V average) then we're talking 600-650kv, with 5S (19V average) we're talking 480-520kv, and lastly with 6S (23V average) we're talking 400-450kv.
In addition to the above Kv listings, I'd really like a motor with a 6mm main shaft (which is the same diameter of the stock tail shaft) that weights less than the total of the parts to be removed (of which I've still got to weight the parts above).
For starters, I looked at the neu motors but nothing came close to my kv desires. Next I looked at the scorpion motors of which the S40 series has some "possibilities". The 4020-10, 4020-12, and the 4020-14 are all in workable kv ratings but they weight a lil more than what I desired but still way too early to say yea or nea.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!
08-24-2009 03:23 AM
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Ironhide
Senior Heliman
Location: dexter mi us

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		So missile ,are you running a Odin electric fan or a radio shack fan ?

I'm interested in your conversion now . You might make me a believer .
08-24-2009 12:12 PM
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helinewby
Senior Heliman
Location: Mason Ohio

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		ironhide

odin fan

C.B.

stop typing and go burn some more fuel!
08-24-2009 12:35 PM
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Ironhide
Senior Heliman
Location: dexter mi us

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		3 wire fan ? esc ?

I really like how easy the engine removal would be . I'm getting closer .
08-24-2009 02:03 PM
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helinewby
Senior Heliman
Location: Mason Ohio

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		ironhide

you had better hurry up! when the HS open up am buying all the fan and esc i can get. Not to mention you can get a used n9 at a great price. This might make me come back to synergy....

C.B.

stop typing and go burn some more fuel!
08-24-2009 02:38 PM
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Rymps
Veteran
Location: Indianapolis

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		helinewby

Can you move the the fan closer to the head? Or is there a reason for mounting it like you did? ie did the fan perorm better?

I like what you have done with the fan. Is there a way to move the engine up in the frames?

Are you going to the Dayton fun fly Saturday?

Thanks
08-24-2009 02:56 PM
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Ironhide
Senior Heliman
Location: dexter mi us

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Just not totally sold yet . I does look like it makes the engine removal alot easier but is the Juice worth the squeeze ?

Please weigh the fan , esc and extra battery for us would ya .

Not quite sure if I would use the same fan setup . But if I could find the right 12 volt brushless fan and a small lets say a 3s 300 mah lipo it might be worth it to me . I would like to keep it totally separate from the rest of the electronics .

You gotta really think about this one tho , your given up a mechanical fan for an electric one . The weight of the shroud , esc and fan isn't free , But on the other hand the weigh spinning on the crank might be worth it . Not knowing .

You could also cut down the stock fan or use every other fan blade to reduce the load and weight on the crank .

Just my 2 cents
08-24-2009 03:14 PM
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missle
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chester, Oh

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Ironhide, the eletric fan and esc weighted slighly less than 35g where the stock fan, housing and hardware was just over 75g ( im at work so im trying to go off memory). As for battery weight, that would be a big fat ZERO cause im using my Fromeco 4800mah and i recharge about every 5 flights.

The fan & esc itself is sold for the Odin 90 but im not sure of the actual manufacture.

Couple of things i must mention right now: Im not trying to convince a single person into trying these mods. They are more of a self accomplishment but im also willing to suffer the Failures. Please dont take offense to this, but if you dont like the idea, then don't try it!

As for why the fan is as high as i mounted it, i actually moved it down about another 5-7mm and put it about a 3-5degree slant. I got it as close as i can to both the carb intake and the head, any closer and you stand the chance of having a venturi affect on the carb

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!
08-24-2009 06:55 PM
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Ironhide
Senior Heliman
Location: dexter mi us

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I like the mod so far .
Keep us informed .
The stock plastic fan shroud does feel a little heavy . I might just cut my stock fan down as of right now but I do see this mod in my near future .

Missle, looks great I love all the new ideas ! Where did you get your aluminum starter coupler ?
08-24-2009 09:59 PM
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Shawn Pierce
Veteran
Location: Galliano, Louisiana

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Ironhide, if i was to guess, it looks like a hyper drive coupling. but thats just a guess.
08-24-2009 10:51 PM
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helinewby
Senior Heliman
Location: Mason Ohio

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		were credit is due!

Missles is the guy who put this together on his N9. i just witness the difference in his synergy and my synergy's i sold. I have always loved the way the N9 handels in the air, but IMO as for pop it just didnt do it for me. Even with 8717's on 8v. Missles N9 i would say wieghs 101/2 -11 pounds at least with his electronics on board. With that being said with the new mod he has done you really dont need to lighten the heli up unless you just want to. That bird had plenty of power and pop to boot!

also you heli will fly longer due to less drag on the motor...My Odin flies for 10-13 min

C.B.

stop typing and go burn some more fuel!
08-25-2009 01:26 AM
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missle
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chester, Oh

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Thanks for the props CB. Just remember that my goal is to catch up to YOU

To answer a couple of the other questions:
Yes you could move the fan closer, but I didn't cause I wanted to stay above the intake as well as if the air stream is too close to the cooling fins, I think too much of the cooling effect will be lost due to turbulence. As for the shroud, that too could've been extended all the way down, but I wanted to be able to entrain cooler outside air to add to the bottom half of the airstream in a manner that could "pull" more heat off the fins. Also, if you look at the stock fan shroud, it basically only covers the distal fins whereas this fan is mounted just above so it actually has a much larger diameter that covers not only the distal area of the fins, but also the area in which the piston rides. Lastly, with the head still exposed, in the extremely rear case that I forget to turn the fan on (yea right), the head will still be getting some airflow.

The motor appears to be a small brushless that does have the three wires but they are only like 20g or so, and actually connects to the esc using standard servo connectors. The best part is it comes completely assembled and if you ever felt you weren't getting enough cooling (ie you live in an area where temps are always > 90 deg), the fan and ESC can be run on a 3S lipo! I've not tried it yet, but I may in the near future.

One other thing I forgot to mention earlier as a warning more than anything. Last week I was doing some auto's with aborts a few feet off the ground when the two bolts that connect the main gear to the main shaft, sheared off. Now this is the 2nd time this has happened to me but the first time was about 6 months ago and those bolts were the original that I bought on the heli. This last set that broke were only ~ 6 months old so I'm guessing the power was just too much for them. So I drilled the main shaft, collet, and the oneway shaft out with a 5/64th bit and used a single high strength steel bolt with a lock nut.
Now the next "weekest link" is probably the crown gear and tail gears so I need to hurry and figure out a motor for the tail.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!
08-25-2009 02:36 AM
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helinewby
Senior Heliman
Location: Mason Ohio

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		3s lipo

Yes a 3s lipo works great on the fan! go for it.....

thanks C.B.

stop typing and go burn some more fuel!
08-25-2009 04:18 AM
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missle
Senior Heliman
Location: West Chester, Oh

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Well i probably will but now im thinki g a way too make it work with rest of the system. I can either go with a single 3s pack that runs the fan, tail motor and all the electronics but this means i have to get a better regulator/ubec. If i go that route, im thinking something capable of up to 4-5s and 15a. The othere choice is to stay with a 2s in the 2500-3000 range for heli electronics, and there would be a second 3s pack for the fan and the tail. Then the last thought would be to just keep the fan on 2s with the heli electronics and then i could use a 4-6s on the tail motor.
This weekend, i may just start with a 3s 1320 on the fan, and a 2s 3000 on the electronics.

WATCH OUT!!!!!!!!
08-25-2009 12:12 PM
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Synergy R/C Synergy N9 > How to make a lighter N9 with great power
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