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Scorpion Power System . Ron's RC Helicopters . Thunder Power RC
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Flybarless Rotor Head Systems

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Flybar Vs Flybarless

Mundale

Heliman

burton Mi USA

iv been looking for a thread for this but couldnt find one so if its out there already im sry... i just found about these a couple days ago iv been stuck in iraq so im behind on times so i was wonder how big a diffrece is it whats the pro and cons between the 2 like y fly with no flybar what do u get out of it?

03-16-2009 Over year old.
Stolla

Key Veteran

Port elizabeth South Africa

To sum up, a properly setup flybarless conversion will fly more like a good simulator, i use phoenix and vstabi.

Common sense may not be common after all

03-16-2009 Over year old.
Mundale

Heliman

burton Mi USA

so thats the only thing is that it runs more like a sim dose it put more straine on the servos or head or ne thing like that i mean theres gotta to be a reason for the flybars other wise they would of already came flybarless

03-16-2009 Over year old.
Stolla

Key Veteran

Port elizabeth South Africa

A lot has been written on this subject suffice to say that with the right setup you gain a lot in terms of overall efficiency of the hei, this includes way better operation in windy condition, longer flight times, more power etc, there are some tradeoffs in terms of hovering stability but these can be adressed to a point with the right deadband settings etc for the purpose, i suggest you read through the forums to become more knowledgaeble in terms of what units seems to work best for the kind of flying you want to do. Reason why not all heli's are flybarless is cost but watch this space, i suspect our kids are gonna ask us one day what this flybar thing was

Common sense may not be common after all

03-16-2009 Over year old.
HybridHeli

Senior Heliman

East Texas lawman

so thats the only thing is that it runs more like a sim dose it put more straine on the servos or head or ne thing like that i mean theres gotta to be a reason for the flybars other wise they would of already came flybarless
Helicopters are unstable machines with unwarranted characteristics that will occur with any high inertia rotor system. The flybar is simply a mechanical stabilization device that reacts to compensate for uncommanded rotational or pitch movements. Even real helis had them at one time.

A flybarless heli simply replaces this mechanical device with an electronics system consisting of gyroscopes and computational electronic control.
Real helicopters use some form of flybarless stabilization.

The advantage is less rational mass in the head, possible higher rotational speeds (while maintaining safe loads), longer flight times (less rotational energy) and tune-ability

The disadvantage is setup and cost (although after your first flybarless crash youíll realize that it costs considerably less to fix due to the reduced number of head components).

The above does not even begin to touch on the opportunity for autonomous or autopilot flight resulting from electronic control of the flight systems.

__________
nothing automatic about autorotations man..

03-16-2009 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
Chuckie

Key Veteran

Crofton Maryland

Yes there is more strain on the servos and links. Battery consumption goes up by 100 to 300mah per flight but as stated the flight times are longer as well.

The big advantage is how the fbl heli flys. The flybar resists pilot commands as well as wind so without it you're controlling the heli directly, or with assistance with flight control system, vbar, 360 or what have you. Heli tracking and wind resistance is greatly improved as the flight control system does a better job than the flybar. Another improvement is the fact that you can tune your heli without spending more money on paddles and new blades, though the blades make a difference in how the fbl heli flys. What a more stable heli then turn up the bell or paddle weight in the software, etc. The engine doesn't see as much load so the flight times are longer and you will bog the engine less. Weight savings from all head parts you take off is significant and as was stated you save a money in crashes.

One additional down side besides cost, the tracking is so good when you go back to flybared helis your flying will suffer. You always have to stay on top of the controls with flybared helis. With FBL you fly faster and think of the next maneuver versus making sure the heli is tracking as you expect.

I definitely think the gains out weight the negatives. Fly one and you'll see for your self what all the buzz is all about.

Charles

Please stand by for faster service!

03-16-2009 Over year old.
inkspot1967

rrProfessor

ri.

^^+1 i aggree

03-17-2009 Over year old.
Mapleleafs

Veteran

Ontario, Canada

FBL for life bro.

Vbar Trex 700N, Vbar MSH Protos 500, Vbar Logo 400

03-17-2009 Over year old.
ArtK

Veteran

Temecula, Ca

Pros VS Cons

Flybarless

Pros
1. Can have both stable track and fast response
2. Less drag- less power required.
3. Maintains track in windy conditions.
4. Crashes better- no flybar to untangle.
5. More energy in an Auto.


Cons
1. Cost
2. Can be difficult to tune.
3. More challenging to get piro on axis
4. At times disconnected feeling.
5. Does not compensate for drift caused by wind.

Great for 90% of the pilots. Advanced pilots may prefer the flybar more when stable track is not as important, but rather perfect piro's are. Beginner pilots may struggle with setup.

Thanks RR,
Art K.

03-17-2009 Over year old.
monsterdog

Heliman

mexico city

i am beginner pilot and i have flybarlees an let me tell you the heli feels whit more response , power i will do all me helis flybarless


atte:monsterdog

mexico rc

03-17-2009 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
McRex

Veteran

Halls, TN-USA

Ford vs. Chevy again?

Daniel, AMA # 923248

03-17-2009 Over year old.
HybridHeli

Senior Heliman

East Texas lawman

Ford vs. Chevy again?
I wonít say so in this case. Everyone seems to be in agreement with the benefits and the drawbacks of flybarless systems. Now, WHICH system to choose..that's another story!

__________
nothing automatic about autorotations man..

03-17-2009 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
Alexander01

Veteran

Sweden

I've been flying V-bared machines for approx. 12 months now (600N + Logo 600 3D). My 600N had been beaten to it's bones during this time. Higher collective and cyclic load, higher speeds, higher RPM - everything put together should have caused more trouble with that heli than I've witnessed. Today, the mechanics is still great, I really trust that machine, and it's a great feeling. I was suspicious about the drive train for the tail, as I've stripped a couple of gears in the air prior to V-bar conversion. Well, call it luck or whatever, not a single gear tooth has given up on me yet
So, as for wear and tear, I don't see any problems. The same goes for Logo.
As for flying, it's just so addicting. Imagine practicing a move in the simulator. You think you can master it, then you try it IRL. Before V-bar, it was like a whole new story trying to perform something you thought you could do with your eyes shut. But V-bar gives you that connected feeling, tracking is like on rails, the heli stays where it was put. In other words, more confidence = faster skill gain.

QuickUK Team Pilot SAB Team Pilot

03-17-2009 Over year old.
Ben-T-Spindle

rrProfessor

Central Illinois

After flying my first flybarless for only a week now I am sold. It really does fly a lot better.

I only see a few of disadvantages.
1. The main disadvantage is the cost.
2. You have to modify your old head or get a new flybarless head (more money).
3. It takes a bit of time to get it set up. If you are new to helicopters or just sport flying than itís not that critical. If you are into 3D it takes a while to get it just right.
4. You have to have some real good high performance digital servos (more money).


I think that the bottom line: if you have the money itís well worth the cost and time.

... BTS

03-17-2009 Over year old.
McRex

Veteran

Halls, TN-USA

Weight savings from all head parts you take off is significant
Just how significant are we talking about here, if I'm not mistaken you have to add more electronics right? Has anyone done a before and after weight comparison?

Daniel, AMA # 923248

03-17-2009 Over year old.
jbdww

Elite Veteran

Round Rock, Texas

Warning about Flybarless. Once you convert the first one, you will wont to convert your whole fleet.
Right before I converted several months back I was struggling to make a perfect roll with my 600n. I could do it on the simulator perfectly. Then when I converted it to flybarless all of sudden that roll looked exactly the way I practice it on the sim. I used to be way further along in the sim versus the real machine and now the gap has closed up to what I am learning on the sim.
Joe

Skids Up
http://www.jbdww.com
http://twitter.com/jbdww/

03-17-2009 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
Alexander01

Veteran

Sweden

McRex:

Electronics weight for V-bar is basically the same as for GY611. And as you no longer need any separate tail gyro, it's +/- 0.
However, removing the majority of the rotating parts in the head (except for the blades) does make your machine more effective in the air. The rough estimate is approx 15% better efficiency (easy to estimate for electric helis).

QuickUK Team Pilot SAB Team Pilot

03-17-2009 Over year old.
jbdww

Elite Veteran

Round Rock, Texas

There is also less links which means there is less friction in both the mechanical and the air. You can for sure tell the difference. On every heli that I converted to flybarless I notice that they seemed to be lighter to fly.
Joe

Skids Up
http://www.jbdww.com
http://twitter.com/jbdww/

03-17-2009 Over year old.
HOMEPAGE  
Chuckie

Key Veteran

Crofton Maryland

I agree with Art's pro list but from my experience the cons are not necessary true. My fbl 600n prios better and I never feel disconnected. At least that is what I can say when using the 3 axis vbar. My 600N vbar not only rolls on the boom, flips faster but it also prios right on the main shaft upright and inverted, something it never did with the flybar.
There is also less links which means there is less friction in both the mechanical and the air.
Your point is correct, without the flybar to keep the rotor disk stable the heli will roll and flip faster as the flight control electronics now keeps the heli stable or not. But because the servos are now connected directly to the rotor disk without 'power steering help' the loads on the servos and links increase. I saw 150 to 300mah per flight increase in current draw when converting my 600N to fbl. In windy conditions the current draw was higher telling me the servos had to work harder to keep the heli on track or moving fast against the wind.


So a con for me is the current draw is higher with FBL.

Charles

Please stand by for faster service!

03-17-2009 Over year old.
ArtK

Veteran

Temecula, Ca

Piros

My logo600 piros very well. All my smaller birds struggle. None of them piro as well as I have seen with flybared birds. The mechanical gyro is basically a wind correcting top with virtually Infinite stabilizing input. The electronic system has to keep up.
A nice feature of flybared birds is the wind drift compensation. The flybar aligns itself to the relative wind all the time. You will notice a flybared bird drifts into the relative wind and not away. This is not track but position. During a piro the flybared bird handles steady wind better. This is why Vbar offers piro optimization. The system however may not keep up with fast piros and will start to precess. So fast, strong, and quick responding servos is the key. It may also help to have heavier stiff blades that stabilize leading edge nutral since most piros are performed at low pitch angles and less servo power would be required offering more power for stability. I think radix blades are a good choice for this reason. I found noticable piro improvement on my 500 when swithing to this blade. There is a reason why many pros still fly with the flybar. However, I could not have imagined learning how to fly faster then with a flybarless heli. The solid track combined with immediate rate response makes the learning fast. It also gets you out of trouble fast which is nice when learning unusual manuevers.

03-17-2009 Over year old.
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