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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Campers Fuel vs Gasoline
 
 
Brunobl
Key Veteran
Location: Pomerode, SC, Brazil - 26 40S 49 11W

My Posts This: Topic  Forum

Hey ShuttlePilot,

Quote 
What are you going to do with that pump gas that has ethanol in it?

I've got some experience with that one. For about a year, I extracted the ethanol out of pump gasoline prior to using it in my Spectra. Down here our gasoline has 25% ethanol, minimum, so using it straight from the pump is out of the question. Not so much for temperature or octane or anything like that, but because that much ethanol is sure to hurt the rubber parts in the carb.

Not taking part in the camper fuel/pump gasoline debate here, I use neither.


...Bruno.
Spectra G sipping Avgas 100LL, Jewel generator
T-Rex450SE V2
DX7
06-02-2009 07:25 PM
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kogibankole
Veteran
Location: albuquerque

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		update: 4 gallons thru preddy

i have been using regular 87 octane more and more. I figure by the time the carb needs to be changed due to too much ethanol in gas, I would have saved enough to buy multiple carb kits. The real question is; is anyone using 110 octane aviation fuel?

if im not blade bogging youll find me pack puffing
06-02-2009 09:56 PM
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Brunobl
Key Veteran
Location: Pomerode, SC, Brazil - 26 40S 49 11W

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
I figure by the time the carb needs to be changed due to too much ethanol in gas, I would have saved enough to buy multiple carb kits.

I went through carb kits at something like a new kit every two gallons of fuel before finally accepting that I'd need to find a way to get rid of the excess ethanol from the fuel if I wanted to continue using pump gasoline. But as I said, we have a very high, 25% ethanol mix here.

Quote 
The real question is; is anyone using 110 octane aviation fuel?

Not 110, I use 100LL. Got tired of the gasoline/ethanol home-brew act, so ended up using 100LL Avgas.


...Bruno.
Spectra G sipping Avgas 100LL, Jewel generator
T-Rex450SE V2
DX7
06-02-2009 11:53 PM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		If you're looking at Coleman fuel for $10 dollars a liter, then you are looking at the wrong kind of Coleman fuel. The Coleman fuel being used in these engines comes in a 1 gallon sliver/red metal container and sells for about $8 dollars/gallon. However, a lot of places have stopped carrying this fuel and replaced it with "Coleman Premium Fuel" which is in the little plastic red bottle.

You can buy 93 octane unleaded ethanol-free racing fuel for about 10 dollars a gallon from your local motorcycle racing shop. It does not smell bad or go stale like pump gas, yet it does not have the low octane value of Camper fuel. This is another option to consider.

Quote 
I bought a giant thing of popcorn for this yearlly thread.

Did you cook the popcorn over a Coleman stove?

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-03-2009 12:27 AM
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torenhg
Senior Heliman
Location: Milwaukie, OR

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		As I begin the final steps in my Spectra G build and am learning all I can about breaking in my branny new Hansen Modified 260puh, I am standing on the fence ready to go either way.

Thanks allot for the notion of running camp fuel at the end of the season, Great Idea! The ethanol in Gasoline is what concerns me but I have been running whatever comes out of the garage gas can for years with whatever mixing ratio I happen to try at the time and so far no problems.

As I type this with my elbows (need fingers to eat popcorn and oh yeah, to open my frosty beverage) I think regular gas will be my choice and at the end of the flying season (wait, I fly year long???) I will run camper fuel to clean things up...

PS: for me it is ok to re-beat the dead horse. It is valuable for me to see all of the interactions, opinions, experience, ideas, technical info (mixing ratios) and flame posts are interesting to watch...

Thanks, cant wait to burn a few dinosaurs in my Spectra

Blade 400-3D
Shuttle ZXX
MinAir Fury
MinAir Spectra G (In Build)
06-03-2009 05:45 AM
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shawmcky
Key Veteran
Location: Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		jrockstuart

Is this the stuff,at around 10 bucks the company World of Camping says "we believe we are the cheapest in the UK"for half a litre.They dont call us rip off Britain for nothing.Our regular pump gas is 10 bucks for five litres.How much in the states these days?



Team- unbiased opinion,no experts here just trying to help thats all.K.I.S.S principle upheld here
06-03-2009 07:07 AM
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shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		That is the stuff and it's outrageous in your country. If it was that much here, I would be burning regular gas as well. Of course most places around here have pulled the gallons off of the shelves. You can get a quart for what a gallon usually costs. $17.00 a gallon....crazy. Back when I was a young boy you could buy what we always called Amoco white gas. I can't remember the octane, but it seemed to run great in my 2-stroke dirt bikes. It looked pretty much like camp fuel, but the octane was higher. If I had that available now, I would give it a try. Just had a thought.......it may be called the Amoco Silver now. When I run out of camper fuel, I may give that a try and see if the engine runs any differently.

Gas is Great
QWW Helis
06-03-2009 07:19 AM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Of course most places around here have pulled the gallons off of the shelves. You can get a quart for what a gallon $17.00 a gallon....crazy.

Coleman realized they could sell a liter of the same fuel for the same price that they used to sell a gallon, and people would pay for it if they put the name "premium" on the bottle.

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-03-2009 12:53 PM
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shawmcky
Key Veteran
Location: Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Coleman,s UK price

I would be interested to know what wholesale price is paid by the distributors here.Certainly one hell of a mark up,think i should look into importing the stuff myself.Does Coleman fuel originate from the U.S.A?Wonder if they know the price here?I could rebrand it,what about Liquid gold?

Team- unbiased opinion,no experts here just trying to help thats all.K.I.S.S principle upheld here
06-03-2009 01:18 PM
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GyroFreak
Elite Veteran
Location: Florida ... 28° 52' N 81° 16' W

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		shawmcky

Quote 
Our regular pump gas is 10 bucks for five litres.How much in the states these days?

I am paying $2.25 a gallon, which is a little less than 5 liters.
EDIT:
5 liters = 1.32 gallons US.
Which would be 59 cents a liter
or 0.42 Euro per liters (hope I did that right)

Bacteria They're the only culture some men have
Growing old is mandatory; growing up is opti
06-03-2009 01:51 PM
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copperclad
Elite Veteran
Location: NY

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Hi shawmcky
how much for a litre of Bacardi 151 , i am thinking you could trade out the carb , and save some serious bucks
06-03-2009 02:05 PM
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shawmcky
Key Veteran
Location: Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		Gyrofreak

I thought your gas prices were pretty low,our unleaded regular gas is £1.07 a litre,which works out at $1.73c at the moment.If i ever holiday in America i am bringing some gas cans

Team- unbiased opinion,no experts here just trying to help thats all.K.I.S.S principle upheld here
06-03-2009 03:15 PM
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shuttlepilot
Elite Veteran
Location: Mullins, South Carolina

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		shawmcky,

Do you think they will let you do the cans as carry on, or will you have to check them....

Gas is Great
QWW Helis
06-03-2009 05:51 PM
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Flying Tivo
Veteran
Location: Monterrey,NL,Mexico

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		My take on camper fuel

The reason i used coleman was simple.
Octane is a combustion retardant, on a 2-cycle engine the stroke is rather short compared to 4-cycle. Try to picture a detonation of 89 octane fuel at 10,000rpms. Part of the explosion would still be taking place while the exahust port is open. So if you use coleman or 55 octane fuel, which means less retardation on combustion, then all of the explosion would take place while all the ports are closed, and this is more efficency and that is why it runs cooler. When you run an engine cooler the oil does not burn as much. If you use a high flash point oil (I use KL-200) then most of the oil will survive the combustion and still lubricate well the engine. This is why you can run higher ratios. I used 2.5 Oz of oil.

Oh!!! and did i mention it does not smell?

Felipe

PD: I sure miss my gasser.

If life throws at you lemons......Squirt some lemon juice in the eye of your enemy!!!!
06-03-2009 05:53 PM
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GyroFreak
Elite Veteran
Location: Florida ... 28° 52' N 81° 16' W

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Octane is a combustion retardant, on a 2-cycle engine the stroke is rather short compared to 4-cycle.
Now that makes sense.

Bacteria They're the only culture some men have
Growing old is mandatory; growing up is opti
06-03-2009 08:02 PM
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jtg13
Heliman
Location: So Cal

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Octane is a combustion retardant

Very true. Octane rating of fuel is a way to change timing on these 2 stroke engines, which is exactly the reason most gasser guys don't run high octane fuel. If you want to test different ignition timings, try different octanes. Octane ratings will also change flame front propagation in these engines, which can have a big effect on the heat distribution on the piston surface providing different amounts of unburned fuel per engine cycle. Ideally, flame front propagation is matched to the intake fuel distribution pattern for most complete fuel burn and most power. And no, I don't have the equipment to measure and calculate flame front popagation in these engines (I wish I did), but changing octane ratings of the fuel we use in the engines has many different effects and higher octane ratings will not necessarily provide more power... and in fact can provide much less.

John G
06-04-2009 09:01 AM
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shawmcky
Key Veteran
Location: Isle of Wight,United Kingdom

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		As a point of debate only

If an engine manufacturer knows that a certain octane is required for their engines(as all have research and development departments to extensively test their engines)it must act as a reasonable guide as to the octane required for that engine,having said that,I'm sure that with the amount of people that have used alternative fuels successfully,the engine must be more than capable of operating outside of the recommended parameters.I would give the Coleman fuel a try but just too much to buy here in the UK.

Team- unbiased opinion,no experts here just trying to help thats all.K.I.S.S principle upheld here
06-04-2009 09:55 AM
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jrockstuart
Elite Veteran
Location: Allen, Texas

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		You've seen that Dave's Discount Motors recommends 91 octane or higher in their Zenoah motors?

http://www.davesmotors.com/c.885035/site/goped-faq.html

MinAir Spectra-G
Trex 450Pro V-bar /Scorpion /JR
Wally Motors/New England Heli/DL Canopies
06-04-2009 01:12 PM
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Pinecone
Key Veteran
Location: Maryalnd

My Posts This: Topic  Forum
Quote 
Octane is a combustion retardant

Sounds great, but is totally wrong.

Octane is a measurement of the ability of the fuel to resist detonation PERIOD. It has NOTHING to do with burn rate, burn temp, etc. You can have fuels of the same octane rating, with different burn characteristics (rate, temp, etc). Look at VP Fuels and see how many different fuels they make with similar octane ratings.

Detonation is a function of the heat and pressure in the comustion chamber causing uncontrolled ignition, leading to multiple flames fronts and excessive cylinder pressures.

And with a spark ignition engine, timing is totally controlled by the spark. With a glow engine, there is some fuel effects on timing, but not with spark.

Now, there are issues with timing and RPM in that as the RPM increases, the spark needs to occur earlier to ensure that the peak cylinder pressures occur at the proper point in the rotation for maximum power without harming the engine. But this is controlled by the ignition system, not the fuel.

Another issue with "octane" ratings is that different countries use different ratings. Most of the world uses Research Octane Number (RON). The US changed from RON to Anti Knock Index (AKI) in the early 70s. So if you look a recommendations for "octane" from a non-US source, their numbers will be higher. 91 RON is very similar to 87 AKI US fuel. 97 - 98 RON is the same fuel as US 93 AKI. AKI is an average between the RON and the MON (Motor Octane Number) and is more indicative of how the fuel performs under a wider range of conditions. The MON test is under more extreme condtions of temperature.

And aviation fuels use a different system, that is similar to RON and MON, but not exactly the same. Aviation fuels used to be specified with two numbers, 80/87, 91/96, 100/130, 115/145, but those were dropped to single numbers, using the lower one. So now you get 80 or 100LL aviation fuel. 80 aviation fuel is similar to 87 AKI motor fuel. Be warned, all current aviation fuels are leaded, with a good bit of lead, so are more hazardous when handled. And most engines these days are designed for unleaded fuels. There is a 96UL aviation fuel specification, and if I could find it, I would run it in my gasser. Less/different odor, more stable, no alcohol.

Terry
Blade CP Trex 450 SE
QJ EP8v2 EX Gaui Hurricane 550
Vibe 50 Bergen Intrepid Gasser
06-04-2009 04:55 PM
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hootowl
rrProfessor
Location: Garnet Valley, Pa.

My Posts This: Topic  Forum		I run Coleman for years now. Motor runs great.

My Wife said she likes shopping at the Dollar Palace because it is convenient and casual. "I don't have to get all dressed up like I'm going to WalMart or something"
06-04-2009 05:45 PM
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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > Campers Fuel vs Gasoline
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