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Radio - JR & Spektrum DSM > DX7 Swash mix question
 
 
Foster
Senior Heliman
Location: Saline MI

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Are the Aile, Elev and pitch percentages supposed to be 50% or 60%? Finless vids using futaba for 450 setup was 50% but the DX7 defaults to 60% and I cant help but think I've been doing it wrong
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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myaces
Veteran
Location: North Bend, Wa

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It depends on your servo's, heli and setup. They will vary a bit but just keep aileron and elevator at the same value in the radio. Put pitch to whatever you need while trying to keep the swashplate in the middle of the range of travel when at mid-stick.

~Team Collective Mayhem
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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Foster
Senior Heliman
Location: Saline MI

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Oh dang I've just been leaving them at 50% and I've struggled with finding the center of travel on the trex swash...

This is Trex 450 or Beam E4 with Hitec 65mg's

Thanks for the reply
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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mchammer
Elite Veteran
Location: California,USA

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yes, that is just a base starting point adjust them to suit your setup so you get max throws without any binding.

Peace Through Superior Firepower!!!
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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Foster
Senior Heliman
Location: Saline MI

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Well that explains that lol Not sure how i missed that in all the videos and stuff Ive read online
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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Skarn
Veteran
Location: Pasadena, MD

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Quote 
They will vary a bit but just keep aileron and elevator at the same value in the radio


Why to you say to keep AIL and ELE the same value?

I've had them different without any problem...if you want a faster flip rate than roll rate, you can increase the ELE value.

Skarn

It's better to burn out than to fade away...
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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Foster
Senior Heliman
Location: Saline MI

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I wonder if he meant Ale and Pit since they would need to be the same for the swash to be level?
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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Riq
Veteran
Location: ND

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Set your pitch independent of the aileron and elevator.

Even if you wanted a faster roll then flip rate or vice versa, I think that would screw up any other interaction on the swash, ie putting it to the corner is going to bias toward one side or the other.
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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T-Rex-Flyer
Elite Veteran
Location: Panama City, Fl

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You're swash mix for pitch, aileron and elevator are all independent of one another and adjust each for the pitch you want for each. They have nothing to do with any interaction you may have at high or low stick. Use you're ATV/End point adj, or what your radio calls it to eliminate any interaction that you might have at high or low stick.

If the wings are traveling faster than the fuselage, it's probably a helicopter.
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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Riq
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Location: ND

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I would think youd have to program a mix, similar to setting up 140 to avoid interaction....this is if you for some reason wanted a differing ail/ele percentage.

Im interested to hear some opinions.....


edit: Interaction would be incorrect, Im meaning the angle of the swash is not going to correspond to the stick input, which is undesirable in my books, but maybe for some reason......
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Jacksonville FL

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You set your throws by adjusting the percentages to what you want to achieve with a pitch gauge.

You can have more aileron or elevator if you choose, though I prefer mine to be the same degrees of cyclic throw that doesn't mean they will be the same numerical value.

Also servo arm choice comes into play here, shorter servo arms will have larger percentages than longer ones.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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rotormonkey
Key Veteran
Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada

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Yep +1 to Barracuda. The values in the swash mix mean nothing. Adjust those to get the PHYSICAL angle for ail and elev. The numbers may end up being nothing alike, but you want the same amount of pos and neg on ail and elev cyclic. The whole idea of separating those numbers is to let you adjust them individually.

Changing them separately will not adversely affect the heli in any way. Assuming of course you don't set up with 2 degrees on aile, and 8 on elev of couse..
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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Foster
Senior Heliman
Location: Saline MI

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as is with most subjects in this great hobby there seems to be no cut and dry answer... should have known that

At least I understand what I was doing wrong when I was trying to get max throw, instead of adjusting links I should have been changing these values. I was having trouble getting center stick to be neutral pitch.

Thanks again for the replies guys please keep them coming I want to know as much as possible on this.
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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BarracudaHockey
rrMaster
Location: Jacksonville FL

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Set the middle 3 pitch points to 50, that way if the stick is anywhere near center, the servos will be centered. I'd suggest using idle up.

Then adjust the linkages for 0 pitch.

Then adjust the PIT value for your desired total throw.

Then tweak the individual end points to make the swash level at top and bottom stick.

Andy
AMA 77227
http://www.jaxrc.com
02-17-2009 Over year old.
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myaces
Veteran
Location: North Bend, Wa

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Yep, at 50% on the transmitter for pitch curve make sure your blades have no pitch like Barracuda says. Since I started doing that it's made setup of a new heli a lot easier.

Quote 
Yep +1 to Barracuda. The values in the swash mix mean nothing. Adjust those to get the PHYSICAL angle for ail and elev. The numbers may end up being nothing alike

Maybe it's just been the heli's I've flown (Align Whore) but I've never had one that the numbers for Airelon and elevator are "nothing alike", they may not be exact but typically they are very close.

~Team Collective Mayhem
02-18-2009 Over year old.
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rotormonkey
Key Veteran
Location: Ottawa, ON - Canada

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Neither have I. I suppose it's possible you could use the swash mixes to compensate for bad geometry (likely not a good idea), which is probably the only reason they'd not even be close. Whatever.. The point is, they're not likely to be the same.
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myaces
Veteran
Location: North Bend, Wa

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I'm talking AILE and ELEV only. Mine are always the same with 4 different models, 450, 500, 600 & 700. Granted, I might have a small amount of difference between the pitch for roll/flip but it's not noticable to me.

Example

Trex 700
AILE = 52%
ELEV = 52%
PIT = -62%

EXP = ACT

I expect AILE and ELEV are very close for most setups since you typically run the same servos and most heli's try and keep the linkage rods the same length for all three cyclic servos.

Pitch will always be the oddball.

~Team Collective Mayhem
02-18-2009 Over year old.
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dkshema
rrMaster
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

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Barracuda's pretty close.

The numbers in the SWASH MIX menu do nothing more than control HOW MUCH TOTAL MOVEMENT you will get for AILERON CYCLIC, ELEVATOR CYCLIC, and COLLECTIVE PITCH.

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If you were flying a standard mix, non-CCPM helicopter, if you needed more or less aileron or elevator CYCLIC movement of the swashplate, you would adjust the ENDPOINTS/ATV for the AILERON or ELEVATOR channel. If you needed more or less collective PITCH, you'd adjust the ATV/Endpoints for the collective pitch channel. If you needed to REVERSE the servo movement for one or all three of these channels, you would do the reversing in the REVERSE menu of your TX, for the channel that needed to be switched.

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But, since you have a heli whose swashplate is setup for 120 degree CCPM control, it requires that three servos work in unison to move the swashplate correctly. The individual control adjustments take on new meaning, as you have to deal with the electronic mixing that is occurring in the radio.

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The electronic mixing requires a few things to work differently in your transmitter. First, the channel reversing function in your TX ONLY affects one of the three servos, not the action of all three. The channel reversing feature in your TX ONLY allows you to get the three servos moving correctly, with respect to each other, and has nothing to do with them moving correctly with respect to the function they are controlling.

For instance, for aileron control, two servos need to move in opposite directions, one up, one down. The third servo does nothing. But if your servo reversing switches are in the wrong position, those two servos may both move up, or both move down. Fix THAT using the reverse function for ONE of the TWO servos.

Elevator requires that two servos move up (or down) in unison, while the third moves opposite (generally the elevator servo). IF all three move UP (or down), you reverse the elevator channel.

Collective requires that all three move up, or down in unison. Generally, if you get the elevator and aileron channels moving correctly with respect to each other, the collective takes care of itself.

BUT -- you may find that although the servos move correctly with respect to each other, they may move opposite of the direction required for the FUNCTION.

This is where the SWASH MIX/SWASH AFR menu comes into play. By simply changing the SIGN of the aileron, elevator, and/or pitch function, you reverse that function instead of messing with the channel reversing stuff.

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The ATV/Endpoints no longer adjust the travel of the FUNCTION, they only adjust the travel of an individual servo. So, if you find your swashplate level at mid collective/zero degrees, but that it tilts as it goes full up or full down, you use the individual endpoint/ATV settings to correct the movement of the individual servo that is moving too far, or not enough. You don't affect the other two servos in this manner.

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The SWASH MIX/SWASH AFR menu is also where you control how much total collective travel you get (full stop to stop) with the SIZE of the pitch number, and how much aileron and elevator CYCLIC pitch you get by adjusting the SIZE of the AILE and ELEV numbers in the swash mix menu.

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Finally, the numbers in the swash mix menu do NOTHING to center the swashplate in its travel range for that zero degree setting.

This is accomplished by making sure your servo arms are where they are supposed to be AT NEUTRAL (generally horizontal, parallel to the ground unless your pushrods have some weird geometry). When you have all three SERVO ARMS properly positioned at NEUTRAL (mid-stick on both sticks), you adjust the pushrods controlling the swashplate to get the swash not only level, but in the center of its overall travel range.

When you have accomplished THAT, you then adjust the pitch links up on the head generally to get all mixing arms level, and ZERO degrees pitch in BOTH blades.

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Barracuda mentions the idea of setting your pitch curve to a big FLAT LINE at 50%. I picked this idea up from Ron Lund's Heliproz South website. If you have a 5-point pitch curve radio, set points 2, 3, and 4 at 50%, and point 1 at 0, point 5 at 100.

In doing so, as long as the collective stick is anywhere between points 2 and 4, the servos will be centered (neutral) and you can make your pushrods to level the swash, and center it in its overall travel range. You can set the rest of the pushrods to level the various mixing arms, and to set ZERO degrees pitch in both blades.

Finally, you can go to points 0 and/or 100 to set the overall pitch travel using the PITCH number in the SWASH MIX/AFR menu.

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To figure out what the AILE and ELEV numbers "should" be, use your pitch gauge to figure out what your cyclic pitch is.

If you turn the head so that the flybar is perpendicular to the sides of the heli (main blades -- one in front, the other over and parallel to the tail boom), set your collective stick to the ZERO degree setting, you can measure CYCLIC PITCH values for the AILERON function.

Put the pitch gauge on the MR blade sticking out front, about mid-way on the blade. MOVE THE AILERON stick side to side. Go full LEFT (or right) and measure the amount of pitch from ZERO degrees that the blade moves. Adjust the AILERON number in the SWASH MIX/AFR menu to get +/- 6 or 7 degrees of aileron cyclic.

Turn the head 90 degrees, keeping the collective at the ZERO degrees pitch setting. The flybar is now over and parallel to the tail boom, and sticking out in front, the MR blades are perpendicular to the sides of the heli.

This time, move the ELEVATOR stick to its full extreme, measuring the amount of pitch the MR blades get as you do. This time, set the ELEV number in the SWASH MIX/AFR menu to get that same +/- 6 or 7 degrees of cyclic.

If you've made it this far:

1. Your servos move correctly with respect to each other, even if you swapped the plugs at the RX for the Aileron and Pitch servos.

2. The servos move correctly with respect to the stick movements.

3. Your swash stays level from full negative pitch to full positive pitch.

4. You have adjusted your linkages to get the swash level and centered at mid stick.

5. You have zero degrees pitch in both blades at mid stick.

6. You have set the full positive and negative pitch values and know how to adjust the COLLECTIVE number in the SWASH MIX/AFR menu to increase or decrease overall travel.

7. You have set the maximum cyclic values for aileron and elevator and know how to set these using the AILE and ELEV numbers in the SWASH MIX/AFR menu.

8. You understand what the ATV/Endpoint settings do for a CCPM head and can use this to keep the swash level throughout its travel range.

9. You understand what the channel reverse settings do for a CCPM head. Next time you build a CCPM heli, you will be able to get things moving correctly in a matter of minutes.

10. You understand how to reverse the pitch, aileron, and elevator movement by changing the SIGN of the value associated with the function (AILE, ELEV, PITCH). The next time you set up a CCPM heli, you will be able to get the three functions following the stick correctly in a matter of minutes.

Go to the individual pitch curve settings and using your pitch gauge, set your normal and idle up pitch curves.

If you've gotten your gyro and tail properly set up, you're ready to go hover, track the blades, and fine-tune your pitch and throttle curves.

Go fly.

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* Making the World a Better Place -- One Helicopter at a time! *

Dave
02-18-2009 Over year old.
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myaces
Veteran
Location: North Bend, Wa

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Damn, Mark give that guy a sticky! Actually that post might need a few of em...



~Team Collective Mayhem
02-18-2009 Over year old.
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Riq
Veteran
Location: ND

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...so if you have a mech correct setup, theoretically, then if you put acrazy 25/75 respectively in ail/ele mix, the swash would never correspond to the degree position/movement of the stick.......thus proving the relative mis-interaction of the stick to swash movement.....ie you put the stick NNW and it goes much closer to straight North...

Who would ever want this, minus correction for bad setup......

Am I on the wrong page?

I guess you can F up a 401/770 setup just like this...maybe youll never know until the day you do......
02-18-2009 Over year old.
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Radio - JR & Spektrum DSM > DX7 Swash mix question
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