RunRyder RC Helicopter Topic - RAPTOR 50 Wierd problem with head, need help

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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Wierd problem with head, need help

Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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I have a 50SE I got used and crashed to build as a trainer for my granddaughter. She was flying it today, when she kinda punched the throttle the thing did some wierd crap. May be why it was crashed when I bought it. The blades seem to get all out of whack and it started making some ungodly strange blade noise and headed for the ground. Luckly it was only about four feet up and she managed to get it down in one piece. I looked at the heli and saw nothing wrong so I tried it. Just hovering nothing seemed wrong but if you load the blades, it's like they totally loose tracking and are running at different pitches. It will not hold altitude when it starts this and won't quit until you get it on the ground and let them slow down.

It has the metal head and I've had the head almost completely apart when I was rebuilding it and I'm sure everything is tight. I did move the link balls on the washout arms to the outer hole.

I've gone over this head everything looks good but there is a fox in the hen house somewhere.

I've had a 600N Pro, a Helimax K-50 and several electrics for about a year and know how to set them up. This is my firt Raptor and I've never come across anything like this thing was doing.

01-25-2009 03:01 AM

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Mike Bilyk
Senior Heliman
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA

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my guess is some bad bearings.

check all three of the bearing in each blade grip, and check the two main shaft bearings.

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01-25-2009 03:05 AM

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onequick96gt
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Location: mason,MI

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Check the thrust bearings in the main grips and make sure the "bigger" hole is on the inside.

Aaron
Vibe 50
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01-25-2009 03:31 AM

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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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It's called a "Woof". If the head explodes it is called a "Poof". Together it is called the "woof and poof".

Seen it in various iterations over the years on many machines. Look for slop in the collective. When the head is loaded it is fine but when it unloads to zero pitch this is when the blades will go out of track, that can signal the start.

Recently saw this on a Kasama head equipped R50 and replaced the critical ball links in the collective circuit and the problem was resolved.

TM

I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the paychecks.

01-25-2009 03:32 AM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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Well, I just pulled the spindle out and blade grips apart and checked all the bearings. They are smooth as silk and the thrust are in right. The rubber dampners are extremely hard and tight, I had to keep turning the spindle to get it out of them.

I installed all new bearings in the frame for the main shaft when I had it apart. The top one was a little rough so I replaced them.

01-25-2009 03:38 AM

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Mike Bilyk
Senior Heliman
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA

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flip the grips.

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01-25-2009 03:40 AM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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I have heard about that but these are in the way the book shows where the link ball is on the trailing edge of the blade. That's also the way they are in my 600N. So, you're saying put them in so the ball in on the leading edge of the blade.

01-25-2009 04:05 AM

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Mike Bilyk
Senior Heliman
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA

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yes, flip the grips to leading edge. you have to flip the washout hub also or the links will rub.

then change your radio, your pitch will be reversed.

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01-25-2009 04:43 AM

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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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There is no need to flip the grips. The problem is in the collective mechanism. Take and hold the flybar paddle with your hand, then twist the blade with the other hand. If you can move the blades or they feel like they click a little, there is too much slop and the servo can't control the pitch of the blades.

Been there, got the T-shirt.

TM

I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the paychecks.

01-25-2009 05:21 AM

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Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

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Flip the grips and save youself a bunch of aggravation. I know guys will say you don'y have to, but the flip will be the best and longest lasting fix. It's free and you can use your existing blades and servos. I'm definately with Mike on this one and like Tmoore I have wasted countless hours finding that stupid little problem so as to keep existing blades, that illusive cure so critical to the woofing. It will come back without the flip, it's just a matter of time. Trust me I wouldn't lead you down the garden path on this one and you have already assessed the situation for obvious defects (loose, bent, missplaced parts or misalgned balls etc).

01-25-2009 11:46 AM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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Thanks, sounds like I'm flipping the grips. I've always been one for finding and fixing the cause of a problem, but I've never been one for reinventing the wheel either. Bad engineering is just that and I don't plan to fix something so it works the way they designed it just to have it come back and bite me again later. So, if there a proven workaround, I'm taking it.

01-25-2009 02:21 PM

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PJRono
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Location: Land of 10,000+ Mosquitos!

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We've also had this problem and tried to track it down. On my buddies we still haven't found it. We did make it better, but not gone entirely. The flip works period! Just make sure to chamfer the middle of the y-arms that connect the swash to the washout arms. When you look at the y arms they are bevelled on one side, when you do the flip you need to bevel them on the other side.

Just sit right back and I'll tell a tale, a tale of a fateful trip. That started from...

01-25-2009 02:45 PM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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I'm not seeing something because I just flipped them and don't see where anything down there changed.

The seesaw hub was threaded all the way through so I took the mixing levers off, fliped them over and just screw the screw back in the hole at the other end of the hub (after taking the screw out for the opposite mixing lever). Other than now the grip balls are facing the leading edge and the mixing levers are facing the opposite direction, I don't see where anything else has changed. Nothing is binding, nothing changed other than I've got to readjust my mixing arms to 90 degrees (that changed slightly) and reset my grips to zero pitch, that also changed but nothing below that changed. Or, are you gonna say I can't do it that way.

01-25-2009 03:14 PM

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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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Thanks, sounds like I'm flipping the grips. I've always been one for finding and fixing the cause of a problem, but I've never been one for reinventing the wheel either. Bad engineering is just that and I don't plan to fix something so it works the way they designed it just to have it come back and bite me again later. So, if there a proven workaround, I'm taking it.

How is it necessarily bad engineering when things get sloppy and need to be restored? If this is your definition of bad engineering, welcome to model helicopter 101, let the class begin now. Parts wearing out is a way of life with model helis so think about this; you started out with a crashed machine so ask yourself, what did I miss during the rebuild?

TM

I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the paychecks.

01-25-2009 03:47 PM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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Wow, sorry I offended you when I'm just trying to seek a little help.

As for the bad engineering comment, it was not meant to be offensive but I would consider any problem that is a common problem to only one make an engineering problem. Even if it doesn't develope until after wear factor has gotten involved. I've never heard of this with the Trex, or Century I have but seems to be a very common problem with the Raptor. I think that pretty much identifies as being a design (engineering) problem.

Now, am I saying the Raptor is a piece of crap just because it has this problem, hell no. I've been around the block more than a few times and know anything and everything can have it's problems but that does not make it a bad product.

I've got a Trex 450SE V2, that had a problem with shredding the belt. You read on their site and you will see that is also a common problem and their are all kinds of work arounds to it some actually buy aftermarket tails, the same as flipping the blades on the Raptor. Do I think my SE V2 is a piece of crap because of this, hell NO!!! I've curred the problem and think it's a great little heli and the best flying 450 I have, and I have five of them.

01-25-2009 04:11 PM

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dos boss
Senior Heliman
Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma - USA

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Flipping the grips works I had to do it on my R50. Don't forget to reverse your pitch servo in your radio.

01-25-2009 04:18 PM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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Now, before the way I flipped mine gets lost in the bickering, can someone comment on how I did it to make sure I'm not doing something wrong because I didn't do any of the stuff that was mentioned below the seesaw.

01-25-2009 04:21 PM

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dos boss
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Location: Broken Arrow, Oklahoma - USA

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I didn't have to make any changes like that either. I just flipped the grips and washout and reversed my pitch servo. I didn't have any binding or anything rubbing either. You should be good to go if nothing rubs or binds when you move controls to the extreme positions.

01-25-2009 04:35 PM

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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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Changing the belt to a Gates belt on a TREX 450 isn't the same as flipping grips to get leading edge control of the blades on a head. Here's a news flash, if you let the collective system get sloppy on any heli you will have tracking problems that can lead to the "woof and poof", no exceptions and it has nothing to do with engineering and it has everything to do with good building practices and maintenance.

TM

I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the paychecks.

01-25-2009 05:00 PM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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Hey Ya'll, I want to thank those of ya'll I didn't piss off for the great help. Reversing the grips seems to have taken care of the problem. A quick and easy cure. The blades are tracking good and had no signs of the "WOOf" as you'll called it.

Now all I have to do is figure out what's going on with the radio I've put in it. Since this is going to be my granddaughters trainer, I installed my old Futaba 138DP PCM receiver with a 7C radio. Now it only flys about 30 seconds and looses power. I will go take that problem to the proper forum though.

01-25-2009 07:03 PM

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GimbalFan
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Location: Copter County, Nv

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A quick and easy cure.

Good for you. Now you'll be able to ignore that pesky slop in your linkages.

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01-25-2009 07:34 PM

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Way2slow
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Location: Jeffersonville Ga

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If there had been slop, I would have fixed it. When I first put it back together I took care of all that, I replaced several of the rod ends because they were too loose, I even replace several of the balls. I removed all screws and checked all arms and bushings. When I put it back together everything was securely tightened with lockite and made sure they did not wobble on the pivots so don't give me crap about slop, there is none.

I just had one guy tell me just using different blades will cause it. Maybe it doesn't like the Woodies I have on it but that's what it's going to run so I could care less, the head is right and tight, and with the reversed grips works just fine.

It's mine and I'm happy so again, for those that don't have issues with reversed grips and helped me, THANK YOU.

01-25-2009 07:50 PM

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GimbalFan
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Location: Copter County, Nv

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All due respect, I've never once seen R50 woof symptoms that weren't solved by finding and eliminating linkage slack, including in the collective servo itself.

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01-25-2009 07:54 PM

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Mike Bilyk
Senior Heliman
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA

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check this link out, its pretty much a step by step for the grip flip.

http://www.scotiabladerunners.ca/raptorimprovements.htm

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01-25-2009 07:58 PM

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Swoop
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Location: Newark, DE USA

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All due respect, I've never once seen a woof symptom that wasn't solved by finding and eliminating linkage slack, including in the collective servo itself.

I could not agree more. Went through this last summer on a friend's bird. Turned out to be a weak collective servo. I did not flip the grips. Installed a new 9252, woof has not been back since.

If the flip worked for you thats good, but I don't think you found the root cause of the problem.

01-26-2009 04:43 PM

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TMoore
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Location: Cookeville, TN

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I could not agree more. Went through this last summer on a friend's bird. Turned out to be a weak collective servo. I did not flip the grips. Installed a new 9252, woof has not been back since. If the flip worked for you thats good, but I don't think you found the root cause of the problem.

Swoop, thank you, good call!

My point exactly.

TM

I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the paychecks.

01-26-2009 06:27 PM

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PJRono
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Location: Land of 10,000+ Mosquitos!

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TMoore - Nobody is against you! The fact is that I personally have seen one set of blades woof and another set not woof on the same machine. In this case it is a blade problem not a mechanical problem. Yes, there are people that have slop problems and I hope they would address it. Sometime's its a pain it the arse to track down. I been flying Raps for 8 years and still can't figure out why my buddies R50 does it occasionally, and we've replaced everything and locked all the sleeves to the screws.
The "Flip" works and works well, not to mention that the heli tracks better in FFF afterwards.

Just sit right back and I'll tell a tale, a tale of a fateful trip. That started from...

01-26-2009 11:42 PM

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TMoore
rrProfessor
Location: Cookeville, TN

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Nobody is against you!

Didn't think they were.

The grip flip isn't a panacea for unstable blades or slop in the collective system.

TM

I thought I wanted a career, turns out I just wanted the paychecks.

01-27-2009 02:57 AM

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bboyy
Senior Heliman
Location: Sydney- Australia

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I once had a bad 'woof' couldnt even get it off the ground. Changed the woddies to carbons all gone. Another one that i can across once on a buddies was the servo tray had a crack in it which created slop in collective when you put loads on the blades. Ive heard the flip works but havent needed to do it. As long as yout happy with it and its flying thats the main thing.

01-27-2009 03:46 AM

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jschenck
Elite Veteran
Location: La Vista, NE.

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How fast are you spinning the wood blades? I've never had a bad woof from wood blades unless they are spun too fast.

Also, a prime suspect for slop in the collective system is the tray itself moving side-to-side. I've fixed that by gluing the collective tray screw sleeves on and adding small washers between the bearings and the plastic parts so I can tighten it down without binding.
http://www.raptortechnique.com/slop.htm

some more thoughts, take note on what he says about the grip flip (I've never tried it, never felt the need to)

http://www.raptortechnique.com/ts-blade-track.htm

I had a strange setup problem once - turned out to be a bent screw on a blade grip ball link

.. P-gas, T700, V50c/u, R50T, T4/250 and a Cricket ..

01-27-2009 04:16 AM

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PJRono
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Location: Land of 10,000+ Mosquitos!

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Who died and made him Heli God?
You lose no cyclic control.
It does work.
The heli does track better with the "flip".
Try to find the problem and if you can't do the "flip"

END OF LINE!

Just sit right back and I'll tell a tale, a tale of a fateful trip. That started from...

01-27-2009 02:41 PM

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Billebob
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Location: Tim-buck-2

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Who died and made him Heli God?

He may simply be a confused individual. He mentions he never did the flip and then goes on to say how it affects the helicopter. He goes even further saying you'll need new paddles. For a guy who never did the flip he claims to be an expert on the topic.

The site promotes the zero delta mode which functions in a similar manner but looking at the nasty angle of the pitch links especially on the mixer end....I don't think I'd be following that one off the cliff, flute playing or not.

One really has to take this whole web thing with a grain of salt and use the brain god blessed upon us to make logical choices. That site nonetheless still has some good information you should weed through.

01-27-2009 04:40 PM

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Swoop
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Location: Newark, DE USA

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Sorry to hijack but I'm wondering what exactly is the 0 delta mod, what does it do?

01-27-2009 05:19 PM

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Mike Bilyk
Senior Heliman
Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA

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it puts the ball links dead center to the main shaft.(delta= difference from center)

look at that picture ^^^^^

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01-28-2009 01:14 AM

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helidad2
Senior Heliman
Location: potosi mo. usa

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I have two raptors and have had serious woofing and poofing on both but many e-mails with Micheal Prewitt from raptor technique he explained in detail what can cause this and with his advise I found that the radial bearings were notchy ,just a little and barely noticable but notchy. I had replaced them more than once when this first started and the new ones were just as bad as the old ones. but changing them out again fixed my woofing. I then installed a Kasama head on both of my raptors and one of them was woofing real bad I took the grips apart and yep the bearings were notchy I installed new ones and same thing I then used a dremel ever so lightly to open the bearing seat in the grip so when the bearings were installed they were silky smooth and it has never woofed again probably 75 or more flights and no blade woofing . so I would check the grips if they are not smooth enough for the grip to fall from the weight of the arm I would say they are not right . this is my experience and I am a firm believer you dont have to flip anything and there is something else wrong if it is doing this. BTW I am running 2000 on mains, hyper 50 revmax and radix 600's one and tt 600's on the other and my raptor woofed with all of these blades and a set of v-blades fixing the bad bearings made all of these blades fly just fine.
this is only my opinion and hope you find the problem.

even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then

01-28-2009 03:17 AM

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jschenck
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Location: La Vista, NE.

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many e-mails with Micheal Prewitt from raptor technique he explained in detail what can cause this and with his advise I found that the radial bearings were notchy ,just a little and barely noticable but notchy

That's interesting. I have been struggling with my Predator head rebuild. One of the grips kept getting tight every time I snugged down the spindle bolts. After too much time fiddling and puzzling I determined it was a bad radial bearing. They don't feel too notchy, I know I've flown worse but it just about locked the grip when tighten down. I finally swapped the radial bearings around from between the grips just to see if it could be a bad grip or bearing and then BOTH grips moved free but not 100% smooth. Lesson learned, radial bearings can have barely detectable damage that doesn't show until a thrust load is put against them.

btw - I have found the local hobby shop carries a good assortment of loose bearings for the R/C car guys and of course lots of packaged bearings for various car brands, Traxxas, Losi, ect... Takes a bit of hunting but the bearings are local and usually much cheaper than the bearings in heli mfg's packaging. Kind of stuck with thrust bearings but radials are there to find if you look.

.. P-gas, T700, V50c/u, R50T, T4/250 and a Cricket ..

01-28-2009 03:47 AM

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Billebob
Senior Heliman
Location: Tim-buck-2

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I've had some pretty notcy radial grip bearings in my helicopters and they never caused a woofing problem. Sometimes metal grips squeeze too hard and slightly distort bearings causing ruffness, and sometimes it is just age. Long live the grip flip, you might have salvaged a set of slightly inperfect but serviceable bearings with it.
Some people will get CA glue or loctite in the bearings trying to tighten up fits which also causes ruffness.

If the head is built right the thrust bearings should take the thrust load and not the radial bearings. Dampers pressing hard against the inner race will cause axial loading as will improper spacers or spindle lengths.A beraing not seated fully will also cause axial loading so if you move it to the other grip and then everything is finally seated correctly everything suddenly gets smooth.

bb

01-28-2009 01:38 PM

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PJRono
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I say pffffffffffffffffffffffffft. Flown with notchy bearings before, never caused the woof. Besides the heli we are having a problem with has plastic grips and yup they've been replaced (bearings too).

Just sit right back and I'll tell a tale, a tale of a fateful trip. That started from...

01-28-2009 03:03 PM

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helidad2
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Location: potosi mo. usa

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just to clear up what I was talking about . my woofing started with the stock plastic grips . I replaced the grips , I replaced the bearings, hell I even went so far as to jb weld the bearings in the grips and it would still woof. I had posted on here and got the same type answers as this one is getting and none of them explained the reason and there has to be a reason it woofs. so I e-mailed Micheal Prewit and he was very nice to talk with and explained to me why the notchy bearings could and did cause the woofing and told me he had seen it over and over and it always came back to the same thing. If you have checked the dampers. and bent parts and all the other oblivious things in a raptor head already discussed in this thread change the radials . I did and it worked for me. since then I have upgraded to Kasama heads and grips but one of those wooffed very badly till I ground out the grip and smoothed out the notchy bearing as it was just too tight (when they first came out you had to heat the grip to get the bearing installed )and it has never done it again. I am only sharing my experiences dont claim to know much and certianly not an expert on this and I have a lot to learn but I dont think you have to flip the grips there is an identifiable problem causing this and the flipping thing only mask the real problem. hope you find something that works for you.
good luck
David

even a blind hog finds an acorn now and then

01-29-2009 03:59 AM

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BJames111
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Location: Billings, Montana

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Certain blades if weighted aft can allow "woof" more than others. It IS a problem with sloppyness. Period.

Brian James

01-29-2009 04:11 AM

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Thunder Tiger Raptors 30-90 - Imperio > RAPTOR 50 Wierd problem with head, need help

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