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Revolution Models . CarbonXtreme . Midland Helicopters

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > X-Cell Gas, and Futaba GV-1, no extra magnets, no mods!
 
 
ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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Hi,

I worked out a nice way to use the magneto magnets which are built into the Flywheel of the G-23 to trigger the Futaba GV-1 Sensor.

This is very easy to do! There is no worry of magnets falling off, or doing any modifications to any part that moves or rotates which means that there is nothing to affect balance or vibration!

It seems like a win-win situation to me!

You basically mount the sensor so it is 'looking' right through the case of the G-23. It picks up the magnet in the flywheel quite nicely. I get about a 90% 'signal' strength reading on the GV-1. I have hovered this and it holds the head speed nice and steady. I haven't fully flight tested it yet as I had to send my radio in for a repair and it's not back yet.

I posted step by step instructions on the RCU forums, I tried to upload a photo or two here to show you what I did, but I couldn't find the 'send file' button!

Don't bother messing with optical sensors, or trying to find a way to mount those magnets that come with the GV-1. Also there is nothing connected to, nor even near the G-23 ignition system so you don't have to worry about the chance of radio interference.

Rich
05-25-2003 Over year old.
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Beezer
Veteran
Location: Ontario, Canada

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Using the original GV-1 sensor is a good idea.

Another R.R. member who goes by the name "Fidman23" has already come up with his own GV-1 sensor for the gasser that he sells. It connects to the black kill wire on the PU series of motors.

Take a look. http://www.statorgator.com/rchelicopter.htm
05-25-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

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Yes, I saw that and it's pretty cool! I was considering something similar before I came up with this idea.

My idea doesn't cost anything if you are a typical hobyist. You just make a bracket out of some scrap parts (I used some old frame material that was left over after a rebuild).

See my step by step instructions in my gallery:

http://runryder.com/helicopter/gall...ns_for_G-23.doc

With my idea you keep all the radio electronics far away from the engine ignition. And there's nothing else to buy (unless your scrap box is empty).

Rich
05-25-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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Thanks Tom!

If I told you of the things I was thinking before I came up with this idea, you might think I was crazy! Well, not actually but this one was the simplest and the easiest!

Thanks for the good words. I can't wait for my transmitter get get back from repair so I can really fly this new toy!

Rich
05-27-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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This has now been flight tested and works!!

Let me know if you have tried it yourself.

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Rich
06-07-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

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John,


As to you seeing two pulses on your G231PUH with the Throttle Jockey,
I checked on my G230PUH and get only one pulse. I wonder if the magnet polarity happens randomly in the assembly of the flywheel?

Luckily I get only one pulse on my G230PUH. Or at least with the GV-1, it senses only one polarity. Perhaps the throttle jockey is not polarity sensitive?? I don't know.

These were my other ideas on how to use the GV-1 with the X-Cell gasser yet not have to remove the engine or the fan to work on it:


Here's another idea for you. I was going to do this myself, but decided to try the flywheel magnets first because it was easier and less work!

You heard it here first so if it works be sure I get the credit, if it doesn't work, it's your own idea!

Instead of taking your machine apart to paint the fan, try one of the following:

1) Place some heat shrink tubing over the end of your clutch shaft above the bearing assembly. Cut a small vertical running slot about 1/8 wide through the heat shrink materiel so that some of the metal shaft shows through. Then aim an optical sensor at this point. If you don't have enough reflectivity, place some aluminum foil under the heat shrink before you shrink it!

2) Add a shaft collar to the top of the clutch shaft above the bearing block. Then add the heat shrink tubing to the collar as mentioned in idea #1 above. This will give a larger diameter to work with than just the shaft alone.

3) Add two shaft collars as in idea #2, but instead of placing the heat shrink tubing around the collar, afix a round aluminum plate between the two shaft collars. Treat the aluminum plate as you would the bottom of your fan, or better yet, polish a spot on the aluminum first (it can be easily polished to look like chrome) and then paint the rest of it flat black or cover in electrical tape. Mount the plate between the two shaft collars which are mounted to the top of your clutch shaft.

These were all my original ideas to try for using an optical sensor, but i found the pickup sensor using the magneto magnets was less work and probably more reliable (less parts to fail, fall off or wear out).

As to the gator idea, electronically, I love the idea and it certainly works. However, having a bit of a backround in radio and electronics, I am hesitant to have any part of my receiver equipment and wiring close to the ignition system at all. I know that device uses optical isolation so there is no direct electrical connection to the ignition system, and that is very smart, but there still could be stray noise pickup via the wiring, sort of a EMP type pickup. If you try one of these, be sure to do extreme range tests both with and without the engine running to be sure you are not picking up some noise. Another thought would be to add some ferrite chokes (I think even JR is starting to sell these, but you can get them at radio shack) on the wiring leading to/from the ignition area.

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Rich
06-12-2003 Over year old.
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BIGRCR
Veteran
Location: Easley, South Carolina

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Thanks Rich. Those are some good ideas for the optional optical sensor pick up points. I am using the top start shaft to start the helicopter with a one way Pro-Flex starter. I have no top collar and start it just like a Fury. It's lighter that way. This gasser is dead nuts on 11 pounds RTF.
I already use the ferrite coils due to my days Repping for Mikado electric helicopters. I plan on installing one in the lead to the receiver since I have a few on hand. Yes, the coils work wonders.

Later!



BIGRCR- John Garst
06-13-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

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Hi Tom,

It sounds like you put a lot of good engineering practice into this unit!

As i mentioned, my only concerns would be inductive pickup of ignition pulses being fed back into the receiver electronics. It seems from your testing that this does not occur, so perhaps I'm being overly analytical.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time!

Rich

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Rich
06-13-2003 Over year old.
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DangerousDick
Veteran
Location: Cheshire, England

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Hey Rich, you're a STAR

Picked up a new GV-1 today and tried out your idea of just 'pointing' it toward the flywheel through the casing and at one point got it up to 87% on the screen.

I ended up mounting it by using the smaller '30' size bracket supplied with the GV, drilling the skid, and bolting it directly from there. Tested through the screen again and got 75% which will do me for now. Turned the motor over a couple of times to make sure that I was only getting one 'hit' and it all looks good.

Just waiting on a few spares to get the thing back in the air - should have an update at the weekend but everything checking out perfectly on the ground.

Thanks
Richard.
06-17-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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Hey Richard,

I'm glad it worked for you! Just be sure that your mounting method is firm enough so that the sensor won't vibrate.

My setup has been working well so far!

It's so much easier than installing any magnets, balancing, etc.. isn't it!

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Rich
06-18-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

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I happened to be looking around on the Futaba web site when I found this statement about using a gasoline engine driven aircraft on this page: http://www.futabarc.com/faq/faq-gas.html

Quote 
Guidelines for setting up gasoline engine models.
All ignition equipment, including an electronic kill switch, must be mounted at least 12", and preferably 14", away from all radio equipment, including throttle servos, etc. Ignition kill switch should always be on opposite side of fuse from radio kill switch. All pushrods going to anything related to the engine must be non-conductive (just nonmetal clevises is not sufficient).


Keep this in mind when using our Gas driven engines!

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Rich
07-03-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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I guess we need larger aircraft!

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Rich
07-04-2003 Over year old.
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daggit
Elite Veteran
Location: Waseca MN

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I'm thinking maybe that is a "loophole" to any electronics problems given the fact that practically nobody (at least on heli's) complies with those specs.

Remember when Uhaul trailers always read "DO NOT EXCEED 45MPH" on the fenders? Who drives 45 on a long haul?

I always figured it was printed on there so if anything happened on the trip, Uhaul could ask the customer this question first.... "were you traveling at the recommended speed?" not likely!

07-04-2003 Over year old.
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cfranks
Veteran
Location: Adelaide South Australia

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On my Benzin, the spark plug boot is almost touching the throttle servo!!. I've got Tom's pickup connected for my GV-1 so that must be giving me protection.

Charles
07-04-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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We all know that the lawyers are too active in the USA these days, so most companies are simply trying tol cover their assets.

On the other hand, there are good engineering practices and guidlines. Yes, you can get away by pushing the limits, but often when you do, your safety margin is a lot smaller.

Not to get into such a debate here, I thought I'd just point out some backround facts that I found.

If you are personally comfortable with your low level receiver electronics being close to your high energy ignition system, then don't worry about this!

I have some experience with radios, electronics and computers (both software and hardware). Does this mean anything? NO! But I do strive to keep all of my receiver electronics and any associated wiring as far from my ignition system as I can. There is all sorts of methods where an ignition system can interfere with a receiver. From electical impulse noise degrading your SNR (signal to noise ratio), to EMP (electro-magnetic pulse) creating surges or 'noise' indirectly or directly in your wiring or electronic components.

If you're flying and your happy then

But if you're trying to setup some new options, I'd take the conservative route and keep things as far from your ignition system as you can.

For those who might wonder how to be sure, I would reccomend that you perform what I call an 'extreme range test'.

The following works or both PCM and PPM systems (note, both are FM but many people refer to PPM systems as simply 'FM'). With PCM you have to pay close attention to notice the point where servo response is starting to slow down, or you lose control competely. It depends on how you have your 'fail safe' setting programed in the PCM receiver (do you have it set for 'hold' or for 'fail safe'). I have my throttle programmed to a 'fail safe' setting of IDLE, and all my other controls set to 'hold'. This way if I get interference, the engine will go to idle. But the other controls will hold the last good position. If you prefer for this test only, set your pitch to "fail safe" at a slightly negative pitch so the heli will stay on the ground if some interference happens.

Here are the steps:

1) With your engine OFF, set your heli on the ground. Either extend one section of your TX antenna or keep it collapsed (per your radio's manual). Start to walk off in one direction while watching your control surfaces. You want to move the control surfaces regularly and notice both how fast they respond and how smoothly they respond. Also notice if there is any jitter in any control surface.

2) Keep walking away while watching your control surfaces. You may need a helper to watch the heli as you may get too far from it to see the control surfaces. At the point where you start to some jitter in your control surface (for PPM/FM systems), place a mark on the ground. If you are using a PCM system, you need to watch for the servos to start acting slowly, or at complete loss of control. Again, mark this position on the ground. Then move a few steps closer to your model to see that the control comes back, then return to your mark to see that the control is consistantly lost or erratic at this point.

3) Now, return to your heli, and start the engine. This is the dangerous part!! Your heli is going to be running, and you may lose control so be quick to get closer to it if it starts to act erractic (or quickly extend your TX antenna)!!!!

4) Walk away from your heli with the engine running in the same direction as you did in step 1 until you find the point where you start to lose reliable control (or complete control). Then step a few steps closer to verify that control returns and then step back again to see if you found the range at which you lose control with the engine running. If you are very brave you should do this with the engine running and the blades at hovering or even your idle up 2 speed!! Of course, I don't know how you can safely do this with blades on the heli. I have heard of people using a head loading device instead of actual heli blades, but if you keep a slight amount of negative pitch, the heli should stay planted if you have a PCM system. I would hesitate to even attempt this with a PPM

Is the point in step 4 the same distance as in step 3?? If so then you are not experiencing any ignition interference. If it is very close to the same point, then you have some minor interference.

However if the point in step 4 is not very close to the point in step 3, then perhaps your SNR is not what it should be!! Start moving things away from your ignition system wiring to determing what is causing the problem. Check your spark plug to see that the correct gap is there and that the plug is clean and in good shape. Check your other ignition system items to be sure all is in good shape (wires, grounds, connections, coil, etc.).

I hope this helps someone. It's a lot of info, I'll have to review it a few times to check for errors and edit it to fix them.

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Rich
07-08-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
Veteran
Location: Derry, NH USA

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I uploaded a .DOC file to my gallery which explains how to install the GV-1 sensor on a Gas X-Cell and includes the pictures. Other heli's should be similar.

See: http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/...ns_for_G-23.doc

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Rich
07-21-2003 Over year old.
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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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Just an update to this. After flying with the Futaba GV-1 Governer using the built in magnets on the magneto of the engine for about a year or more and with two different engines (both the G230PUH and the G231PUH) it's been working perfectly.

So don't hesitate to try this method if it appeals to you.

See my gallery ( http://runryder.com/helicopter/gall...ns_for_G-23.doc ) for instructions on how to do this yourself. This method should work in any gas heli which uses a magnet in the flywheel.

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Rich
04-04-2004 Over year old.
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rbort
Elite Veteran
Location: Franklin, MA - U.S.A.

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I'm thinking generator now

Hey Rich:

You got me thinking. Since the G26 has so much power to spare, and you taking about the magnets in the flywheel, I'm thinking a couple of coils from the sullivan generator placed in the right area might generate some power from the G26! That being the case, and being able to build my own generator circuit, I can fly that gasser forever without recharing the battery.

Hmmm...something to think about I guess...Is it worth it or should I just invest in a field charger...?

-=>Raja.
04-04-2004 Over year old.
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ImRich
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Location: Derry, NH USA

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Raja,

Get a fast field charger.. why mess with other things which could fail and add more weight to your heli?

Of course, you could use the sullivan generator system. But I think they need more pulses than just one per RPM, see all the magnets they have on their system! Or you could just try it and see.

But I'd say to just go with a fast field peak charger, that's what I do. If you want to buy my old one, I'll buy a new one!

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Rich
04-04-2004 Over year old.
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1 page1594 viewsPOST REPLY
HeliProz . Ron’s HeliProz South . MTA Hobbies

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Gasser Model RC Helicopters > X-Cell Gas, and Futaba GV-1, no extra magnets, no mods!
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