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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > fail safe advice
 
 
datidun
Senior Heliman
Location: n ireland

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hi ,been flying helis for 5 years now ,and i have never known how fail safe actually works and how you set it up.my receivers are ppm,can any pilot please explain it to me ,thanx.
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

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Quote 
my receivers are ppm,can any pilot please explain it to me ,thanx.

Sorry to tell you the bad news but the failsafe/hold function will only work with PCM receivers........Basically , if the signal is lost, your servos will hold their last position until the signal is regained, assuming that you have not set up your "failsafe" function..........

Alternatively, you can set up the failsafe function so that in the event of signal loss, your servos will go to a "pre-determined" position.

Many folks will set their failsafe throttle position to "idle" and collective to "neutral" (0 pitch) so that if the receiver looses signal, the motor will go to idle, collective to 0 pitch and the heli will "float" down to the ground.....
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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predatorman
Senior Heliman
Location: Falkland Islands

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PCM does have built in failsafe, but its pays to always check this function...what I do is switch the radio and heli on...push the colective up so the throttle opens up and then switch the radio off...the failsafe within the RX should shut the throttle...switch the radio on again the the throttle should open up again...ie leave the collective stick up while doing all of this.

I would fit a failsafe, you can get an independant unit that plug into the throttle servo lead...some you have to setup...so read the instructions carefully...once fitted ALWAYS test the function.

Some folk dont use failsafe, but its not a risk worth taking...in fact its downright stupid to not fit one...not everyone knows of them...but once informed you really ought to fit one...or go PCM.

I know of two helis lost because of flying away into the wide blue yonder...and I know of a little child in the UK that was killed by a plane that went out of control....because this is what happens...the servos go wild.

One plane here went out of control and went clean THROUGH (sideways too) a 1''x 6'' plank on a fence...very serious..but lucky because it came down in a neighbourhood.
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Forster, New South Wales, Australia

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I set up fail-sade on my AP ship so that
pitch went to minus 4 degrees (to keep the blade spinning)
throttle off
Ap2000i gain up to 80% (to ensure the rotor disk remained level during decent)

Unfortunately, we got to use it in the real world after the heli (a Trex450) got blown away in a huge jetstream. As the heli disappeared behind trees, fail-safe was activated at a height of more than 60 feet, and the heli landed upright on a concrete surface, and apart from trashing the camera (underslung mount) and one undercarriage leg, there was no other damage!

Tony Stott
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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datidun
Senior Heliman
Location: n ireland

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so i need to change to pcm is that right ,safety is so important so why is there no option for ppm
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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predatorman
Senior Heliman
Location: Falkland Islands

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No...the option is there for PPM...you will have to search around a bit.

The PPM failsafe is a wee electrical circuit board...it plugs in between the servo lead and the RX...and is for the throttle servo only. It shouldnt be big bucks.

Stay with 4.8 volt packs too, the 6 volt packs can cause a problem with this type of failsafe.

If the radio will allow it, then change to PCM. You will need a new RX and the proper crystal.

Example:

frequency, 35.120...well the radio crystal stays the same...but the PCM RX will need 35.120 but the PCM type. The Mode in the radio will need to be changed too.

What radio is it?

Quality takes........time!
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

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Quote 
so i need to change to pcm is that right ,safety is so important so why is there no option for ppm

That's correct, you have use a PCM receiver and then switch the modulation on your radio to PCM.....if you have a computer radio, you will have that capability...... if it's not a computer radio, then I don't know.....

Frankly, I would not add yet another component to the mix to give you the ability to set failsafe on your existing FM receiver. You'll probably pay more for that device than you would a good quality PCM receiver....

For example, I've seen (and bought myself) JR 649 PCM 9 channel receivers (used) here on RR for as little as $35 (shipped). That receiver originally sold for $149 !! The 2.4 revolution has made the bottom fall out of the 72 MHz radio equipment....
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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datidun
Senior Heliman
Location: n ireland

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my radio is a jr x-378 .7 channel
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

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datidun,

Yes, that is a computer radio..........Here is the manual for your radio....

http://www.horizonhobby.com/ProdInf...7412-manual.pdf

Firstly, get a SPCM receiver on your preferred channel and make sure it's on the frequency band that is legal for your country....

I believe that 27mghz and 40 mghz are for surface use and 35 mghz is for model aircraft use in your neck of the woods but please confirm this information for accuracy......

Then, go to page 80 of the manual to learn how to switch your transmitter from PPM to SPCM.....

Then go to page 114 to learn how to set up your failsafe/hold functions.....

Hope this helps....
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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datidun
Senior Heliman
Location: n ireland

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many thanx for that
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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datidun
Senior Heliman
Location: n ireland

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ok many thanx for that ,just a thought all my servos should be ok to change over to pcm receiver ,futaba 9254 ,jr ds 811,gyro 401
01-11-2009 Over year old.
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JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

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Yes, no problem.......

Your servos will work just fine with PCM........

Here is the best explanation describing the difference between ppm and pcm that I have seen in recent times as written by RR member dkshema. Just to avoid any confusion, folks oftentimes use the term "FM" vs "PCM" when they should be saying "PPM" vs "PCM" as both modulate on a "FM" signal........ The writeup should answer your other questions....

Quote 
FM/PPM systems are analog, the signal is a pulse width that varies smoothly between about 1 msec to 2 msec with a neutral width of about 1.5 msec.

There is no digitization for an FM/PPM system, there are no discrete "steps". The encoded stick signal simply changes the transmitted frequency slightly as you move the stick. The width of each channel's pulse is what varies as you move the stick, that causes the transmitted frequency to vary slightly, the carrier is modulated by varying its frequency. The receiver is designed to recover the pulse-widths by processing the time-varying incoming frequency signals. The processing is analog, there are no discrete steps.

When you switch to PCM, the signal, while still being transmitted using frequency modulation, conveys totally different data. Instead of simply varying the transmitter output frequency to represent a varying pulse width, the transmitter digitizes (samples) the stick positions. If you've wondered what "PCM512", "PCM1024" or "PCM2048" means, it means that the stick position can be represented as one of 512, 1024, or 2048 individual, discrete positions, or steps.

The transmitter uses an analog to digital converter to convert the stick position into a number value.

A PCM 512 system can only represent the entire stick movement in one of 512 values. A PCM 1024 system can only represent the stick position in one of 1024 values. And a PCM 2048 system can only represent the stick position in one of 2048 values. This would be the "resolution" of the system. If overall stick movement is 100 degrees, the PCM 512 system chops that 100 degree movement into 512 pieces. The PCM 1024 system chops the 100 degree movement into 1024 pieces, and the PCM 2048 system chops it into 2048 pieces. The pieces get finer and finer.

But in all of those systems, the positions get values of 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, --- 511 (for a 512 bit system), --- 1023 for a 1024 bit system, and 2047 for a 2048 bit system.

As you move the stick in a PCM encoded system, there is a small range of movement that is encoded as a "0", another small range of movement encoded as a "1"....up to the upper limit. But, there are no "halves" or "quarters" or other fractions in between the integers 0,1,2,3, ... up through the upper limit of the system.

The digitization results in the stick being sensed as moving in discrete steps, not a smooth transition from full up to down....

The digitized values of each stick and switch position is assembled into an encoded serial bit stream as binary "ones" and "zeroes". Some other information regarding the validity of the encoded bit stream is thrown in, and the serial "words" are transmitted. The PCM receiver instead of simply seeing an encoded pulse width and recovering it (as an FM/PPM system would do)sees the varying incoming frequency signal as a series of "ones" and "zeros". The processor in the receiver assembles the incoming serial bit streams, looks at the encoded validity values, and decides if the latest "frame" of data is good or bad. If good, it's passed on to the decoder section where the discrete number values are run through a digital to analog conversion, to turn those encoded ones and zeroes back into a pulse whose width represents the encoded bit position that was assembled back in the transmitter. If the received frame is "bad" (or corrupted) it's NOT decoded, but if enough "bad" frames in sequence are received, the Failsafe function is triggered.

Since the digitization can only make discrete values at the sticks, the receiver can only reproduce the pulse widths from full "down" stick to full "up" stick as discrete values, or steps. It can't make a pulse-width that is "between" position 256 and 257, for example (where the analog system can, and does).

When you switch from FM/PPM to PCM, you may gain some signal processing ability to trigger a failsafe function, but you lose the fine resolution of an analog system. As a result, your servos don't move smoothly from stop to stop, they actually move in repeatable, discrete steps.

The analog system can have essentially infinite resolution of stick position, the digitized system can't.
01-12-2009 Over year old.
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Pistol_Pete
Elite Veteran
Location: Tampa Bay non-Buccaneer

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FWIW...Castle Creation Rx (PPM) are programmable and have fail safe among other great features. The Berg 7 channel goes for about $50 with crystal...hard to beat.

<><>...the lunatic is in my head...<><>
01-12-2009 Over year old.
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Brokenlink
Key Veteran
Location: Oakdale,Ca.

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Failsafe=instead of crashing here,it will crash over there

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards. ...
01-12-2009 Over year old.
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predatorman
Senior Heliman
Location: Falkland Islands

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There you go...get the RX...you dont have to go PCM if you dont want to.

That was a nice explantion on the PPM/PCM systems. Its all magic to me, it really is. Its all very clever.

Rob

Quality takes........time!
01-12-2009 Over year old.
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datidun
Senior Heliman
Location: n ireland

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i was thinking of a better radio ,instead of buying a pcm receiver ,i think the dx 7 spectrum radio comes with a receiver that has got fail safe in it ,is it ppm or pcm ,also thanx for all that info.
01-12-2009 Over year old.
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JuanRodriguez
Elite Veteran
Location: Rochester, New York

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It's neither PPM or PCM........ it operates on the 2.4 GHz band.....
01-12-2009 Over year old.
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BigguyOz
Key Veteran
Location: Forster, New South Wales, Australia

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Quote 
Failsafe=instead of crashing here,it will crash over there

Actually Brokenlink, that should read
Quote 
Failsafe=instead of crashing somewhere, somehow, it will crash over there


Tony Stott
01-12-2009 Over year old.
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Safety - RC Helis are not toys > fail safe advice
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